Just been in there to sign my life away again, I should have expected it as I knew it was coming having done it before but the principle still enrages me.
If a married couple "Foreigner and Thai" purchase some land together and want to put it in the Thai spouses name the alien must sign forms to state legally that the funds used are not his. Under Thai law if the couple divorce the assets are split 50:50, following UK law. By signing these forms, which the HH land office enforce now, the alien relinquishes any legal rights to the property - ending up with jackshit and no legal protection whatsoever.
Now my question is this: Are these regulations ONLY enforced by Hua Hin land department or are they country wide? It seems that it is another endeavour by the ever increasing anti-foreigner brigade in Hua Hin's governmental and elitist echelons.
Another observation was that the place was heaving, economic downturn or not there were a lot of Thais transferring land (not many aliens there though).
Hua Hin land office regulations
Hua Hin land office regulations
Who is the happier man, he who has braved the storm of life and lived or he who has stayed securely on shore and merely existed? - Hunter S Thompson
hua hin land office
I am aware of the same policy in Phuket, as years ago I (foreigner) had to sign for my wife....
Ok - I can also confirm that this policy is not limited to Hua Hin only but it is definitely enforced in Hua Hin - else where you are likely to get away with it.
I do have another couple of questions though for the experts ...
An alternative theory has been presented that all married couples (including Thai couples) need to sign this document if they are purchasing land together after their marriage date. This is to protect either one of them should the other decide to sell it - which they can't do without both signatures again.
Now this would make more sense than the other widely accepted theory that they make foreign spouses sign their legal rights away offering no protection whatsoever.
Anyone shed any light?
I do have another couple of questions though for the experts ...
An alternative theory has been presented that all married couples (including Thai couples) need to sign this document if they are purchasing land together after their marriage date. This is to protect either one of them should the other decide to sell it - which they can't do without both signatures again.
Now this would make more sense than the other widely accepted theory that they make foreign spouses sign their legal rights away offering no protection whatsoever.
Anyone shed any light?
Who is the happier man, he who has braved the storm of life and lived or he who has stayed securely on shore and merely existed? - Hunter S Thompson
Buksi, this may not all apply to your circumstances.
Signing to say the money is her's is throughout Thailand and part of the Land Code, extract from Land Code in blue:
An alien whose spouse is a Thai national either legitimate or illegitimate, that Thai national can purchase land but the alien spouse of that Thai national must give a joint written confirmation that the money which that Thai national will expend on purchasing the land is wholly the separate property or personal effects of that Thai national and not the Sin Somros or jointly acquired property
Obviously this is so you have no claim over the land only as it was her own money, pre-marriage that bought it. Also though, anything the foreigner had before marriage, ie: a house in the UK, money in the bank is your personal property and NOT part of the marital assets, so spouse has no claim. She can claim 50% of the increased value gained during marriage period.
You only sign away the land, not the house. If a house costs 5M Baht, land might be 1.5M and house 3.5M. 3.5M is marital assets and you get half in divorce, not if you're lucky and the judge likes farangs, you do get it. If in 5 years its worth 10M, 3M land and 7M house, in separation you get 50% of 7M Baht.
Farangs in Thailand 'lose everything' because they did not protect themselves with the ownership structure. A foreigner can and should register the building (house) in their own name at the land office as a separate entity to the land. If bought before marriage the value pre-marriage is 100% yours in divorce, but spouse is entitled to 50% of increased value during the marriage period.
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We must make a will:
If your spouse dies, under Thai law you are not recognised as one of the first 6 catagories of heirs. This is the same for Thai married to Thai. Aunts, Uncles, half-brothers and sisters come before a spouse.
http://www.huahinafterdark.com/forum/wi ... t9081.html
A foreigner can inherit land in his own name after successful application to government, if application is refused farang can sell land and house and keep the money. Extract from land code in blue:
Besides the aforementioned rules and conditions, an alien may acquire land by inheritance as statutory heir, in this instance, the land devolved when combined with the land already acquired shall not exceed that specified by law, for examples, land for residential purpose not exceeding 1 rai. The Minister shall permit the inheritance of land by an Alien who is the lawful heir.
Another need for the will is if you and spouse die together, your children can be protected, no will and family members can cheat your kids eaiser. Or, if no will and your Thai spouse dies her family members decide what is best for your children in terms of what to do with the property, not you as spouse and their legal father.
You can get a will done for 8-10k Baht.
SJ
PS: There are special circumstances that may affect the above which a lawyer should point out to you, like pre-nuptial agreements, gifts etc.
Signing to say the money is her's is throughout Thailand and part of the Land Code, extract from Land Code in blue:
An alien whose spouse is a Thai national either legitimate or illegitimate, that Thai national can purchase land but the alien spouse of that Thai national must give a joint written confirmation that the money which that Thai national will expend on purchasing the land is wholly the separate property or personal effects of that Thai national and not the Sin Somros or jointly acquired property
Obviously this is so you have no claim over the land only as it was her own money, pre-marriage that bought it. Also though, anything the foreigner had before marriage, ie: a house in the UK, money in the bank is your personal property and NOT part of the marital assets, so spouse has no claim. She can claim 50% of the increased value gained during marriage period.
You only sign away the land, not the house. If a house costs 5M Baht, land might be 1.5M and house 3.5M. 3.5M is marital assets and you get half in divorce, not if you're lucky and the judge likes farangs, you do get it. If in 5 years its worth 10M, 3M land and 7M house, in separation you get 50% of 7M Baht.
Farangs in Thailand 'lose everything' because they did not protect themselves with the ownership structure. A foreigner can and should register the building (house) in their own name at the land office as a separate entity to the land. If bought before marriage the value pre-marriage is 100% yours in divorce, but spouse is entitled to 50% of increased value during the marriage period.
I've never heard of foreign couples or Thai couples having to sign it, but could be wrong. A Farang couple do not buy land, a Thai Limited Company does. The regulation only relates to "Any Thai having an alien spouse."An alternative theory has been presented that all married couples (including Thai couples) need to sign this document if they are purchasing land together after their marriage date.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We must make a will:
If your spouse dies, under Thai law you are not recognised as one of the first 6 catagories of heirs. This is the same for Thai married to Thai. Aunts, Uncles, half-brothers and sisters come before a spouse.
http://www.huahinafterdark.com/forum/wi ... t9081.html
A foreigner can inherit land in his own name after successful application to government, if application is refused farang can sell land and house and keep the money. Extract from land code in blue:
Besides the aforementioned rules and conditions, an alien may acquire land by inheritance as statutory heir, in this instance, the land devolved when combined with the land already acquired shall not exceed that specified by law, for examples, land for residential purpose not exceeding 1 rai. The Minister shall permit the inheritance of land by an Alien who is the lawful heir.
Another need for the will is if you and spouse die together, your children can be protected, no will and family members can cheat your kids eaiser. Or, if no will and your Thai spouse dies her family members decide what is best for your children in terms of what to do with the property, not you as spouse and their legal father.
You can get a will done for 8-10k Baht.
SJ
PS: There are special circumstances that may affect the above which a lawyer should point out to you, like pre-nuptial agreements, gifts etc.
Last edited by Super Joe on Mon Jul 07, 2008 9:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
That's pretty much how I understood it ... anything that actually protects an aliens rights would be wishful thinking.
That will is a good idea too ... its all security for the little dudes anyway
That will is a good idea too ... its all security for the little dudes anyway
Who is the happier man, he who has braved the storm of life and lived or he who has stayed securely on shore and merely existed? - Hunter S Thompson
Again I'm going to have to disagree with you, forcing a married couple to go through this degrading process if they want to buy something together for their children is hardly protecting anyone's rights.
Another xenophobic move by a draconian government that does not accept cross-cultural relationships.
Thanks for the info though but we're never going to agree politically
Another xenophobic move by a draconian government that does not accept cross-cultural relationships.
Thanks for the info though but we're never going to agree politically
Who is the happier man, he who has braved the storm of life and lived or he who has stayed securely on shore and merely existed? - Hunter S Thompson
I doubt we will mate, but I like you anyway 
Buying land is not one of an Alien's rights ofcourse, but agree with you that it's a shittee deal.
A child, or multiple children, from Thai and Alien parents can be given land as a 'gift' and one or all their names can go on Land Title. The Land Office have the right to investigate it to make sure the children are not being used as a 'nominee owner' on behalf of an Alien. Ie: Will you move onto the land next week or do you live somewhere already and its a genuine gift for your kids future.
As this is at the discretion of individual land offices, ie: not black and white from Government, from my experience 'things can be worked out'.
There's a write up about it here: http://www.tillekeandgibbins.com/Public ... ystems.pdf
Might be a way to go to better protect our kids.
Also a child can give the Alien parent a lifetime Usufruct agreement on the land (right of use), not a 30 year lease though. So in event of divorce, you have lifetime access to land, your childs mother/legal guardian can not sell the land 'on behalf of the child's best interests, for his education blah blah blah' as no-one would want to buy land that you will live on for rest of your life. When your child is of legal age cancel the Usufruct and he is in control of it.
Usufructs are not a Thai thing or the latest property gimmick, Latin word from ancient Roman law, has been around since 1630 (before Sargeant was born) and used in many countries like UK, US, France, Zimbabwean farms .....
Under a Usufruct the Alien's name gets registered on back of the Chanote. I'm telling ya, they love us. http://www.sunbeltlegaladvisors.com/Tha ... ufruct.php
SJ
Buying land is not one of an Alien's rights ofcourse, but agree with you that it's a shittee deal.
A child, or multiple children, from Thai and Alien parents can be given land as a 'gift' and one or all their names can go on Land Title. The Land Office have the right to investigate it to make sure the children are not being used as a 'nominee owner' on behalf of an Alien. Ie: Will you move onto the land next week or do you live somewhere already and its a genuine gift for your kids future.
As this is at the discretion of individual land offices, ie: not black and white from Government, from my experience 'things can be worked out'.
There's a write up about it here: http://www.tillekeandgibbins.com/Public ... ystems.pdf
Might be a way to go to better protect our kids.
Also a child can give the Alien parent a lifetime Usufruct agreement on the land (right of use), not a 30 year lease though. So in event of divorce, you have lifetime access to land, your childs mother/legal guardian can not sell the land 'on behalf of the child's best interests, for his education blah blah blah' as no-one would want to buy land that you will live on for rest of your life. When your child is of legal age cancel the Usufruct and he is in control of it.
Usufructs are not a Thai thing or the latest property gimmick, Latin word from ancient Roman law, has been around since 1630 (before Sargeant was born) and used in many countries like UK, US, France, Zimbabwean farms .....
Under a Usufruct the Alien's name gets registered on back of the Chanote. I'm telling ya, they love us. http://www.sunbeltlegaladvisors.com/Tha ... ufruct.php
SJ
On the subject of Thai spouses buying land, I have heard of this causing problems up in Issan as well.
Apparently if a Thai gets married to a foreigner it’s advantageous for them to retain their Thai name rather than adapting the foreigners. If you go to the Land office with a foreign name you start getting all these problems registering a land transfer, whereas if you still have a Thai name nobody asks any questions.
Obviously you still have no protection from the law, but neither have you if you have to sign a document saying that the funds belonged to the spouse.
Apparently if a Thai gets married to a foreigner it’s advantageous for them to retain their Thai name rather than adapting the foreigners. If you go to the Land office with a foreign name you start getting all these problems registering a land transfer, whereas if you still have a Thai name nobody asks any questions.
Obviously you still have no protection from the law, but neither have you if you have to sign a document saying that the funds belonged to the spouse.
I agree with Steve. After many heated debates with my wife over the use of her Thai name vs. her U.S. name I finally gave up. When we moved here it seemed the use of two names caused no end of complications with the bank, the movers and everyone else.
However, it turns out she was right in this aspect. We have bought several pieces of property putting them in her Thai name. I have never yet had to sign the document disavowing the property and she's never had to prove where the funds came from.
I don't know if this makes you feel any better Buksida but it's my understanding she can will me the property and I have a year to dispose of it after probate or whatever they call it here. The year can be extended by extenuating circumstances.
An acquaintance of ours has been through this and if you like I could email him and ask him to contact you about the procedure and how he had to handle it.
However, it turns out she was right in this aspect. We have bought several pieces of property putting them in her Thai name. I have never yet had to sign the document disavowing the property and she's never had to prove where the funds came from.
I don't know if this makes you feel any better Buksida but it's my understanding she can will me the property and I have a year to dispose of it after probate or whatever they call it here. The year can be extended by extenuating circumstances.
An acquaintance of ours has been through this and if you like I could email him and ask him to contact you about the procedure and how he had to handle it.
I figured as much, it was her choice to adopt my surname (which for anyone that knows me is more Chinese sounding than farang when pronounced in Thai!) At the time we never considered the implications as we were young and skint!
Good advice to anyone marrying here though - can Thai women change the name back?
Good advice to anyone marrying here though - can Thai women change the name back?
Who is the happier man, he who has braved the storm of life and lived or he who has stayed securely on shore and merely existed? - Hunter S Thompson
They never have to prove where the funds come from, it's about ownership of the money. Technically her land has not been registered in accordance with the Department of Land's regulations, doubt it matters much.We have bought several pieces of property putting them in her Thai name. I have never yet had to sign the document disavowing the property and she's never had to prove where the funds came from.
The land office does turn a blind eye if the Thai wife does not have the Alien's surname on her ID card. Why? so that there is no comeback to them if anything happens in the future. They can simply blame us for not declaring it.
SJ
Not sure whether this is fact, but some time ago, when I was contemplating divorce, I consulted a Bangkok lawyer plus others. I was told in simple terms that the paper you sign at the land office has no legal standing in court. The matrimonial laws regarding community property are similar to that in the UK. Anything acquired since the marriage will be split 50 -50. I'm told that it has to go to court which can take around a year but the outcome will be as stated.
I also understood that if your wife dies, then land in her name becomes yours. However, as you're not allowed to own land as a farang, you have 90 days to sell it or the land office will do it for you. If you have Thai/farang children, then the obvious thing to do there is 'sell' it to them.
I also understood that if your wife dies, then land in her name becomes yours. However, as you're not allowed to own land as a farang, you have 90 days to sell it or the land office will do it for you. If you have Thai/farang children, then the obvious thing to do there is 'sell' it to them.
If that is the case it will be nice. I understand you are signing a declaration to say that the money your Thai spouse is using to buy the land was all hers prior to your marriage and was not obtained during marriage. But if it has no legal standing then it's irrellivant. Maybe it has no legal standing as eveyone knows its false 99.99% of the time.I was told in simple terms that the paper you sign at the land office has no legal standing in court. The matrimonial laws regarding community property are similar to that in the UK. Anything acquired since the marriage will be split 50 -50
If you have no children with her then it doesn't automatically go to you unless all 6 catagories of heirs under the law are not alive, they are:I also understood that if your wife dies, then land in her name becomes yours
1. Direct descendents 'children' (both with you and with a.n.other before you)
2. Parents
3. Brothers & Sisters of 'full' blood
4. Brothers & Sisters of 'half' blood
5. Grandparent
6. Uncles & Aunts
If she 'wills' it to you then the above list don't apply. If no will exists you get a % share along with the 6 listed above.
If you have a child with her then you are entitled to an equal share along with, and equal to, all of her children. For example you have 2 kids with her and she has 2 from a.n.other, the 5 of you all get a 20% share each.
Again, if you have a will then this split does not apply.
It's only my understanding and may well be wrong somewhere.
SJ
Last edited by Super Joe on Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.