Retire and buy in the land of smiles.

Ask here about the pleasures and pitfalls of buying, selling or renting property and real estate in Hua Hin. Building, design and construction topics welcome. Commercial or promotional posts for real estate companies or private properties are forbidden.
Onlyme
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Retire and buy in the land of smiles.

Post by Onlyme »

Here's a few things you ought to know before buying anything in Thailand!

Below are a few insights into trying to buy property in Thailand.



A loophole is an action which violates the spirit of a law while complying with the letter of the law. A good example of this was the never ending 30 day visa run. Although it was never the intent of the Thai Immigration to allow this it was never expressly forbidden and was therefore legal. This was a loophole and it has been recently closed.

READ THE NEXT PARAGRAPH VERY CAREFULLY!!!!!

As for land ownership through a company this action violates both the spirit and the letter of the law as it is expressly forbidden to use Thai nominee shareholders to act as ghost investors to allow a Farang to own land. This is not a loophole, it is simply committing a crime. In addition in order to make this work the Farang must commit a series of felonies including conspiracy, racketeering and multiple counts of fraud. The worst case scenario is multiple years in prison and large monetary fines.

Below is a bit of good info, only my opinion.

My advice would be to take some time to look into the legal problems and to allow the current political mess in Thailand to settle down before buying anything in Thailand.

As has been noted above, there are significant legal problems with owning property in Thailand. Even ownership of condominium units is risky where there are limits to the % of foreign ownership of the whole building (How are you ever going to know that the total % of foreigners does not exceed the limit).

More Risky that Thai Law are the property developers and sales people who will quite frankly tell you a crock of shite in order to get you to buy.


So please, proceed with caution and take time to build enough knowledge to be able to discern the bullshit that is spread on this subject.

Some Particular Concerns

The only legal way to control land and hence a house in Thailand is through a lease or a Usufruct. The only truly legally way to do this is to give a Thai citizen the money to buy the house, and then they lease it back to you. A 'lease' has a maximum tenure of 30 years and is taxable on two counts (Registration Tax + Tax of the full lease value - the rent you will pay for the lease). A usufruct is valid for the life of the leasee, and has a lower tax, but it is not wholly legal to use a usufruct to build a house (Usufruct is essentially for leasing land for farming purposes).

A lease can have a clause that the leasor and leasee agree to consider an additional 30 year extension, but this is not binding on the leasor, nor on his/her heirs.

The company route
Quite simply it is illegal to set up a company with the express purpose of owning land. Added to which the company must be controlled by a majority Thai ownership and then add to this that the government are now testing these arrangements by asking the Thais to demonstrate where they got the money from to buy your house.

It is a mess and I have a very good friend who has bought two houses this way. He bought the first, and then built the second intending to sell the first as soon as the second was complete. He cannot even get people to view the house he wants to sell.

While the government enforce the law (which was always the law but perhaps not enforced) thousands of expats are sitting on 'Investments' that are worth nothing.

Protecting Your Rights to your property

There is a golden rule of investing in Thailand Do not bring any money to Thailand that you cannot afford to loose, this is especially true of money invested in property.

Where I lived in Narklua there were twelve houses, eight of which had been bought/built by foreigners, all where now in the hands of Thais, only one of those transfers happened with the willing agreement of the foreigner - non got any of their money back.

OK, you can argue that those where Thai/Foreign relationships - but all the methods of buying a house in Thailand, legal and otherwise are 'Thai/Foreign' relationships.

Inheritance
If you have any children/grandchildren then you may very well want to leave them your house in Thailand, or the money from your house.

This is almost impossible, the only legal way to control the house is through a lease and the lease dies with you. (an Usufruct with a management clause that allows you to lease the house ‘might’ (but by no means certainly) allow you to lease the house to your children for thirty years, there after its reverts back to the leasor (The Thai you bought the house for).

Divorce
Do not rule this out, and don’t be offended at the suggestion. Unless you are really rock solid you are taking an increased risk of divorce in moving to Thailand and in truth making the same mistake that many foreign men make when they move to Thailand and buy land/property with their Thai wife/girlfriend – Namely putting their financial well being into the same basket as their relationship.

Yes you do that back home, but back home you are provided with a raft of legislation protecting your rights to property, wealth, pensions.

I would advise any western woman who is considering moving to Thailand with her husband (western or Thai) to take legal advice on the full spectrum of protections they are giving up if they move any substantial part of their wealth to Thailand.

Other Uncertainties
To my mind the big problems are only going to get worse. The whole of Thai society is sitting on knife edge. The current government is getting more wobbly by the day and the recently removed prime minister is by no means out of the picture. Troubles in the South are clearly not getting better.

Given all this I would not rush to buy property that in any case you can't actually own.

So what would I do in your situation?
Well I don’t know how old you are, but let’s say you want to retire in 5 to 10 years time. I’d stick your 60K in a spread of medium to high risk investment trusts and use the capital gained to increase your pension such that you can afford to rent a very nice place with no risks attached.

If your plans are more than ten years ahead that advice makes even more sense.

With a bit of luck the laws will change and you might want to get in the market if they do. Alternatively you might find somewhere else you like, things change like that.

If you are, or your parents are thinking of buying property over here.
Please get them to take off the rose coloured spectacles, stay away from property developers (especially fallang ones) and stick with buying a condo (read above about condo's) or, renting!


I only hope this post saves one person or an unsuspecting couple not to loose their life savings.

Onlyme. :wink:


Part of a paragraph deleted as it referred to the Thai Royal Family. This is expressly against T&C's
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Wanderlust
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Post by Wanderlust »

Light the blue touch paper and retire to a safe distance! :tsk:
Onlyme
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Post by Onlyme »

I'm in the kitchen and can handle the heat!

I'm only trying to help. :wink:
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Post by Burger »

Only Me,

All the property owners, developers and real estate agents who have made millions to date must be quaking in their boots :D :D

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Post by Jim »

After everything that's happened amongst this fine on-line community over the past year, I am just wondering what the motivation is behind the OP?
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Post by gooze »

Onlyme quote:

"As for land ownership through a company this action violates both the spirit and the letter of the law as it is expressly forbidden to use Thai nominee shareholders to act as ghost investors to allow a Farang to own land. This is not a loophole, it is simply committing a crime. In addition in order to make this work the Farang must commit a series of felonies including conspiracy, racketeering and multiple counts of fraud. The worst case scenario is multiple years in prison and large monetary fines."

Here we go again.

So now it appears we have a farrang poster who beleives hes a Thai law specialist maybe I should give you a job.

Quote "violates both the spirit" what drugs are you on?.

So what are you saying, instead of writing reams of text why dont you just come clean and tell everyone what your real problem is.

Are you a failed developer?, are you a failed estate agent?, or are you just a bitter twisted individual who through his own stupidity has lost a property. I think probably your just bitter and twisted.

I dont think the Thais of HH many off whom make a good living due to the fact we buy properties here would appreciate your post.

Are you suggesting that it is better for everyone Thais and farrangs alike if no one buys or leases properties here ?.

Maybe your one off these sick green eyed monsters who lives here on a pitance and gets jealous of anyone who has enough money to buy a property here.

As regards to estate agents and developers making millions, if thats the case good luck to them.

You obviously have had a problem off sorts why not talk about that instead off creating smoke screens.

PS. Get a life.
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Post by gooze »

PS: This question is aimed at Onlyme.

Exactly how many farrangs do you know who are currently serving prison sentences or have been fined for owning "illegal companies" ?.

Youve really pissed me and a lot of other people off today.
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Post by gooze »

Onlyme "Im only trying to help"

Help us all keep your scare mongering pish to yourself you ............... :twisted:
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Post by Nereus »

Jim wrote:After everything that's happened amongst this fine on-line community over the past year, I am just wondering what the motivation is behind the OP?
The motivation is to stir people up---and it is working! Just a troll in disguise.

BTW: nice copy and paste from your kitchen.
May you be in heaven half an hour before the devil know`s you`re dead!
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STEVE G
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Post by STEVE G »

Whilst the OP from onlyme comes across as a bit of a broadside and he could be accused of scaremongering, as far as I can see none of the points he makes are technically incorrect.
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Lev
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Post by Lev »

Onlyme, to legitamise this post please provide a source or reference otherwise it will be considered null and void.

The rest of you can we please keep this civilized.
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Post by JW »

No comment even worthy or required!! Its been done to death and is now boring!

Well put Wanderlust!!
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Post by Onlyme »

Gooze. I neither live on a pitance nor a pittance.
My wife has all the property in her name, funnily enough, she owns more land that I own in the UK!
FYI. I've lived here for a few years, my Thai skills are reasonable. I read, speak and write Thai.

The only problems that I appear to have with above post is with, moderators, developers and foreign owners.
Please point out the points that you don't understand or you don't consider factual?
I'm not a scaremonger or a troll.
Just trying to help. :D
Onlyme.
PS. Lev, you don't want me to go down that road, do you?
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Post by Burger »

OnlyMe,

The info in your post was posted by TTM & co in May '05.
Yes, two years ago, we're still waiting for the knock on the door ................................

You're only two years late mate :D

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Post by ozuncle »

ONLYME
I must say that in the short time I have been a member of this forum I have noticed that you seem to have two strong agendas.
1. Promote Cha Am.
2. Denigrate real estate agents and property developers.

I dont see anyone continually promoting their real estate interests or making false statements.
Why are you so antagonistic about this matter?
Everything you said in your post has been said many times before and I believe you should have stated the origin if indeed it was not your composition.
You have stated that your financial position and stability is OK and you made the decision to live in Thailand.
Why can't you let everyone else make their own decisions.
Sure, if someone asks you their opinion, give it.
But please spare us all your pesimism.
I am neither a moderator, developer or foreign owner and I have a problem with your post.
You only live once.
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