Property - Proof of Ownership

[pharvey]

Not entirely sure this is in the correct place - possibly should be in legal. Anyways........

My wife and I have purchased a property up near the Black Mountain Golf Club/AKA Resort and to be honest I feel I'm getting the run around on documentation etc. I'm not hugely concerned at this stage, but would like some advice/information on what documentation I should actually have.

At the moment I have a signed contract and receipts for payments made, I have a document from the Land Registry Office in Thai with mine and my wife's (Chinese National) name shown, I have also just been given the "Blue Book", but neither my wife's nor my name appears anywhere which is somewhat suprising. Neither my wife or I are residents of Thailand.

To me, other than receipts for payment and the purchase contract, I don't have documentation proving ownership of the house - I realise the land is on a 30 (+30?) year lease, but surely there should be proof of ownership of the property?

Any advice/information very much welcome and appreciated.

[PJG]

Hi not an expert but I think you have answered your own question. You have bought a lease not the land therefore you are not the owner but the leaseholder.

[pharvey]

Hi not an expert but I think you have answered your own question. You have bought a lease not the land therefore you are not the owner but the leaseholder.

But surely I own the property? Or is it a case if I wish to sell in the future I'm simply selling on the lease?

[CDNinKS]

Yes, as PjG states, you will never "own" the land, only the house and your receipts and contract is all you will get. If you decide to sell in the future, you will sell the property and the buyer will be in the same situation as you, buying a house on leased land. Not entirely sure in a lease situation, but if the property has a blue "house book" that can only be issued to a Thai national. The tambien baan (house book) has no bearing on house ownership.

[chopsticks]

Have a look through the older discussion threads in the property section.
You should also have the building permit and house plans to accompany receipts of payments to the builder.
Also, especially for leaseholders, you can go pay some tax and then register the building itself.
Blue and yellow books are no substitutes for above.
The lease is only officially recognised for 30 years not 30 + 30.
Whose name is printed in the blue book ?

[Super Joe]

But surely I own the property? Or is it a case if I wish to sell in the future I'm simply selling on the lease?

It's a bit worrying that you're not too sure where you stand regarding what you own or can sell at this late stage, to be honest Peter.

You mention some documents you have got, from the completion process you should have at least: a) copy of land title with your name and 30 year lease printed on the back, b) signed lease agreement that got registered with the lease, c) white certificate of lease from Land Office with big official stamp on, d) receipts for tax paid at land office, e) construction permit with whoevers name on it, f) Blue Book, g) a bunch of shiny keys.
 
1) Re: House Ownership: You do not automatically have ownership of the buildings (house) on leased land, there is a registration process to go through at the land office, it takes a month and taxes are payable, then you receive a certificate of house registration in your name. Houses do not have 'title' documents here. This requires the participation from the landowner too.
Proof of building ownership: These would be related to your purchase of the house if already built, or for the construction of a new house, so contract to purchase or build, invoices/payments/receipts for same, and the construction permit in your name. Construction permits are often in developers/builders name which is not a problem if you have the other docs.
Forget the Blue Book it is not proof of ownership and your names can not go in it unless you have permanent residency, it's just the House Registration document.
 

2) Re: Selling your house: Your lease contract that was registered at the Land Office will tell you if you have the right to sell or not. Hopefully the following clauses were included in the agreement ...
a) 'Right to Sub-let/lease' ie: rent out or sub-lease the property.
b) 'Right of Assignment' ie: sell on and transfer your remaining lease rights to a.n.other.
These are NOT rights included for under Thai lease law, but the law DOES recognise these rights IF included in the lease agreement and agreement registered with the Land Office.
Section 544 Civil and Commercial Code: 'Unless otherwise provided by the contract of hire, a hirer cannot sublet or transfer his rights in the whole or part of the property hired to a third person'.

Also, there's several other vital clauses that are not included under standard law, but should be added to the lease agreement, such as:
1) 'Succession' - In event of death of lessee/s remaining lease rights go to heirs, otherwise remaining lease period can be cancelled by landowner.
2) 'Option to buy freehold or extend lease period if line with any future law changes.

There's several threads on here covering the above if you have a good search of the Property Sub-Forum.

Good Luck,

SJ

[hhfarang]

1) Re: House Ownership: You do not automatically have ownership of the buildings (house) on leased land, there is a registration process to go through at the land office, it takes a month and taxes are payable, then you receive a certificate of house registration in your name. Houses do not have 'title' documents here. This requires the participation from the landowner too.
Proof of building ownership: These would be related to your purchase of the house if already built, or for the construction of a new house, so contract to purchase or build, invoices/payments/receipts for same, and the construction permit in your name. Construction permits are often in developers/builders name which is not a problem if you have the other docs.
Forget the Blue Book it is not proof of ownership and your names can not go in it unless you have permanent residency, it's just the House Registration document.

SJ is absolutely correct on this (as usual ). There is a one page official document that you must have that proves you own the house/building (not the land). I don't have this problem as I am married to a Thai and she owns everything, even me , but a neighbor brought this document to us last week for my wife to translate for him so he could make sure it said he owned his house.

[pharvey]

Thanks for the comments guys - appreciated.

SJ - thanks for the detail. I was aware of the majority, but not all of the documents you mention. The developer is somewhat slow in providing just about anything and needs to be constantly pushed. As I've said earlier, I have a signed contract, receipts of payment, a document from the land registery with mine and my wife's names on (which I'll get translated in full ASAP)..... and KEYS!! I just wanted to check with the local expats on the forum to see what other documentation is required/can be obtained - thanks again for the info.

Have replied to your PM.

[arliejacobs]

For instance, the sticker over the back of a $25,000.00 painting by Salinas, hanging over the a wall in the estate’s mansion, had fallen off. The sticker on the back of a cheaper armoire with another heir’s name thereon had also fallen off.

[JimmyGreaves]

For instance, the sticker over the back of a $25,000.00 painting by Salinas, hanging over the a wall in the estate’s mansion, had fallen off. The sticker on the back of a cheaper armoire with another heir’s name thereon had also fallen off.

You positive? The armoire's sticker is still stuck on, it may have fallen off last year but they bought some elephant glue and stuck it back on. I saw it only yesterday.

[Takiap]

For instance, the sticker over the back of a $25,000.00 painting by Salinas, hanging over the a wall in the estate’s mansion, had fallen off. The sticker on the back of a cheaper armoire with another heir’s name thereon had also fallen off.

You positive? The armoire's sticker is still stuck on, it may have fallen off last year but they bought some elephant glue and stuck it back on. I saw it only yesterday.

Well they certainly fooled you. It's nothing more than a cheap copy.

[STEVE G]

For instance, the sticker over the back of a $25,000.00 painting by Salinas, hanging over the a wall in the estate’s mansion, had fallen off. The sticker on the back of a cheaper armoire with another heir’s name thereon had also fallen off.

I got curious:

A short while ago, litigation arose in the large estate of a Kerrville oilman. Considering that the trustee from the trust created by the oilman’s will didn’t keep decent records, it had become difficult and quite expensive to find what property was actually in the trust and that which was not. Some of the items to be moved to the trust or left to the heirs had stickers with the trust or beneficiaries names thereon. However, over the years the glue had dried up and also the stickers had fallen off the items making it difficult to establish who was simply entitled to what property.

For example, the sticker on the back of a $25,000.00 painting by Salinas, hanging on the a wall inside the estate’s mansion, had fallen off. The sticker on the back of a less expensive armoire with another heir’s name thereon had also fallen off. Both stickers were found lying on the floor, next to one another, behind the armoire covered in dust. The dispute over who received the expensive painting versus the cheaper armoire needed to be resolved.

[Beguine]

If you have bought a 30 year lease, your name should be registered on the back of the title deed and you should have a copy of that. Perhaps that is the document you refer to from the Land Dept. It is a good idea to check this, since your lease is not valid, unless it is registered with the Land Dept. Whether you can sell the residual period of the lease on or not depends on the terms of the lease agreement you signed. However, regardless of what it says in the lease agreement, most Land Dept offices will require the property owner's consent for a transfer of the lease. In such a case, if they refuse consent, you will not be able to sell. It is as simple as that. There are many cases of fraudulent land deals and the officers understandably try to protect themselves from irate Thai landowners, particularly where foreigners are involved. The Land Code only allows leases on residential land up to 30 years and this is all the Land Dept will register on the back of a title deed. To be enforceable a lease must be registered on the title deed. Any options you may have to renew for further periods after the end of the initial 30 year lease cannot be registered and are therefore just meaningless sales techniques used by developers and real estate agents. Now that you understand you have entered into a 30 year rental agreement that cannot readily be renewed or transferred without the consent of the owner, you will probably also understand that there are unlikely to be many people interested in buying what is left of your 30 year lease, if you ever want to sell it.

You can register ownership of the house structure as a foreigner but this is tied to the lease and ownership of the structure automatically expires when the lease on the land expires. Opinions differ as to whether there is any additional security in owning the structure. I think not much. At any rate the Land Dept will normally only produce a separate title deed for the house at the time the house number is allocated. Some foreigners have said that owning a house helped persuade a district office to issue them with a yellow house registration book, although this should not be necessary since the 2008 Registration of Persons Act which provides for registration of all foreigners on non-immigrant or immigrant visas. However, many district officers are still unaware of the new law. You cannot get your name registered in a house registration book, unless you are on a non-immigrant or immigrant visa of some type. The book is used by residents as proof of address and is in no way proof of ownership.