Why Don't Herbal Supplements Work?

[MrPlum]

I realize I have a lot to say on health issues. I hope readers find it interesting even if they disagree. Here's another subject that has got me thinking.

WHY DON'T HERBAL SUPPLEMENTS WORK?

How many of you have purchased herbs or vitamin supplements and seen little difference in how you feel? Too many I'm sure.

The placebo effect will ensure some people benefit from taking supplements but I suspect the vast majority have not. I would like to postulate some reasons why not.

1. The herbs are grown in 3rd world countries where they are gassed before export, then gassed and irradiated when they hit western countries.

2. Due to the risk of litigation, herbs have been diluted down so much (to not cause 'healing crises') that they are basically useless.

3. The herbs may be of inferior quality, with no active oils present due to oxidation or processing.

4. There may not be any herb in the product at all! Apparently 90% of Echinacea products contain NO Echinacea.

5. Supplement companies have been taken over by Big Pharma who have replaced natural ingredients with synthetic ones rendering the product useless.

6. The recommended dose isn't sufficient to bring about the intended outcome. One person may weigh 120 lbs, while another 300lbs.

7. The individual is treating the herbal supplement in the same way as a pharmaceutical drug and gives up when they don't see a quick enough response. Many herbal treatments take longer to work.

8. The individual is smoking, drinking, eating lousy food and not exercising and has the curious notion that taking a single herb will somehow undo all that harm.

In my opinion, the best outcomes come from using wild-crafted herbs prepared locally.

MrP

[kendo]

Mr Plum,
Very intresting can you recommend anything in particular, your comment about un healthy diet, drinking smoking is very true it has to be a whole life style change.

Not a herbal medicine i know, but still quite amusing, when my wife was in LOS 4 years ago and i was in the U.k, i contracted very bad conjunctivitis, she told me to "ask a pregnant woman for some breast milk, this is very very good for cure, conjunctivitis" so i said "i dont think thats a good idea, i will get a smack around the face, or she would call the police" she was absolutely serious about this, when east meets west, what a little gem that is ah.

Kendo.

[kendo]

Mr Plum,
Very intresting can you recommend anything in particular, your comment about un healthy diet, drinking smoking is very true it has to be a whole life style change.

Not a herbal medicine i know, but still quite amusing, when my wife was in LOS 4 years ago and i was in the U.k, i contracted very bad conjunctivitis, she told me to "ask a pregnant woman for some breast milk, this is very very good for cure, conjunctivitis" so i said "i dont think thats a good idea, i will get a smack around the face, or she would call the police" she was absolutely serious about this, when east meets west, what a little gem that is ah.

Kendo.

[Sabai Jai]

Mr Plum

I presume you mean specifically 'Herbal' supplements as many mineral and oil supplements can be useful. Are Roots 'Herbal' ?

You can get some very powerful combinations of herbs from the Chinese shops as well as some every day simple medicines like "Jap Liang" and "Gaekwae" to (approx) name a couple that are very widely and effectively used.

I supose more subtle medicines are less effective in a body that has been abused and is full of toxins?

Regards Sabai Jai

[MrPlum]

Mr Plum

I presume you mean specifically 'Herbal' supplements as many mineral and oil supplements can be useful. Are Roots 'Herbal' ?

You can get some very powerful combinations of herbs from the Chinese shops as well as some every day simple medicines like "Jap Liang" and "Gaekwae" to (approx) name a couple that are very widely and effectively used.

I supose more subtle medicines are less effective in a body that has been abused and is full of toxins?

Regards Sabai Jai

Yes. I am generalizing in my statement since there are too many variables. You have to use a little bit of common sense. Just as there are some pharma drugs (about 2%) that have some efficacy, the same can be said for herbal products. Finding a quality supplier is the key. If I were to buy OTC products, I would look for tinctures, although they usually don't let them sit long enough before bottling and shipping and they usually contain only1/10th of the qty of plants. I have given up paying large sums to import herbs and am now making my own tonics and tinctures using Thai herbs such as 'Sadao', 'Bua Bok' and 'Ya Luk Tai Bai'. They take a while to mature and it's a bit of an art but it's fun making them.

I'm not a great fan of Chinese medicine due to the eradication of species such as the Rhino and Tiger, to make medicines. This nonsense absolutely isn't necessary and since I don't know the origin of the products I avoid them. I would certainly like to know more about it. What I do praise about China is Qi Gong (I use some exercises in my programme) and am presently studying Tai Chi.

You are correct to ask what is a herb. I am using horseradish root in one tonic I'm making to treat sinusitis and upper respiratory conditions. Since there was a leaf attached to the other end at one stage, I'd call it a herb. Cinnamon, nutmeg, cardamon come from plants or trees and have medicinal properties so I'd add them to the 'herbal' category. Spices more than 3 months old lose their potency, so I'm wary of them. Mineral Oils are very useful. Check the quality and that they are cold-pressed organic.

I'm definitely a fan of the 'you must clean the body' school. 3 days fasting to me is a minimum. For those who adamantly won't do it, then you can clean the body gradually through dietary changes.

Kendo, your wife is a clever lady. Not sure about conjunctivitis but I have used baby poo (while it's still green) in enemas to repopulate bowel flora.

But not from this particular baby...



Note: Any claims I make are merely my personal opinion and should not be construed as providing medical treatment or diagnosis. Please consult your own doctor (who may not have a clue) when it comes to your own health needs.

[margaretcarnes]

Interesting as always Mr P. I've taken multi vitamin pills for years just to make sure any dietary deficiencies are made up, and really can't judge if they make any difference now (except that touch wood I don't seem to get sniffles like many friends do.) Although maybe that's more to do with eating plenty of garlic? I know that many vitamins don't last long in the system anyway.
I've never tried Chinese herbal remedies, and thought that they are always quite 'watered down' anyway? But have just acquired an aloe vera plant and not sure how to use it. Is it OK to dab straight onto cuts etc?
Him Indoors gets very itchy lower legs now and then, so has just started using the aloe vera to see if it works.
Being old enough to remember camphor bags, onion brews and dock leaves (not to mention a vapour thing when I had whooping cough) I'm open to natural remedies, but they do seem to have become too 'proprietory' and expensive!

[Khundon1975]

Interesting as always Mr P. I've taken multi vitamin pills for years just to make sure any dietary deficiencies are made up, and really can't judge if they make any difference now (except that touch wood I don't seem to get sniffles like many friends do.) Although maybe that's more to do with eating plenty of garlic? I know that many vitamins don't last long in the system anyway.
I've never tried Chinese herbal remedies, and thought that they are always quite 'watered down' anyway? But have just acquired an aloe vera plant and not sure how to use it. Is it OK to dab straight onto cuts etc?
Him Indoors gets very itchy lower legs now and then, so has just started using the aloe vera to see if it works.
Being old enough to remember camphor bags, onion brews and dock leaves (not to mention a vapour thing when I had whooping cough) I'm open to natural remedies, but they do seem to have become too 'proprietory' and expensive!

Hi margaret
I found Aloe Vera juice very good for a very bad case of dandruff I had about 15 years ago.

None of the propriety Anti dandruff shampoos worked, but when I simply applied a small amount onto my scalp for a month, there it was, gone!
Mind you it was expensive in those days £15 for 250 MLs.

[MrPlum]

Mr Plum,
Very intresting can you recommend anything in particular, your comment about un healthy diet, drinking smoking is very true it has to be a whole life style change.

Kendo.

If you are still boozing, I understand that 'Ya Luk Tai Bai' is supposed to be as good as Milk Thistle for protecting the Liver from further harm.

[margaretcarnes]

Yes its interesting how the natural stuff works on external skin things etc. My chiropodist recommended tea tree oil for a fungal nail infection last year, and it certainly worked. But I suppose all medicines were originally derived from natural products. As I understand it Mr P is saying that modern pharmaceuticals have little to do with their origins now, which is true. Synthetic substitutes do concern me, but it seems that where oral medicines are concerned, the herbal alternatives aren't all they claim to be either. And as you rightly say they can be very expensive.
Especially for people who get free prescriptions anyway. There's little incentive to try natural remedies when the chemicals are free!
Perhaps Mr P could recommend some basic plant 'standbys' that are easy to grow and use?

[MrPlum]

Yes its interesting how the natural stuff works on external skin things etc. My chiropodist recommended tea tree oil for a fungal nail infection last year, and it certainly worked. But I suppose all medicines were originally derived from natural products. As I understand it Mr P is saying that modern pharmaceuticals have little to do with their origins now, which is true. Synthetic substitutes do concern me, but it seems that where oral medicines are concerned, the herbal alternatives aren't all they claim to be either. And as you rightly say they can be very expensive.
Especially for people who get free prescriptions anyway. There's little incentive to try natural remedies when the chemicals are free!
Perhaps Mr P could recommend some basic plant 'standbys' that are easy to grow and use?

I have mentioned a circulation tonic in another thread but am a little wary of providing details since someone pm'd me about it and asked for the recipe. Why? because if you are on medication, Warfarin for instance and you take a blast of concentrated Garlic and Cayenne, you'll probably bleed to death from the slightest nick!

I'm not really sure how to handle this yet and am giving it some thought. The cost of the ingredients aren't that cheap. I order fresh horseradish root from Bangkok. Tonics use Apple Cider Vinegar (the proper stuff). Tinctures use Vodka. This all adds up. If I offer it, I could be accused of acting in a commercial fashion. (selling snake-oil?) If I don't charge, I'm out of pocket.

The whole issue of what one can say and cannot say is also ridiculous. I'm not a doctor, clearly, but I am an enthusiast and increasingly paranoid. Everyone is interested until the day someone drops dead on your doorstep. It could have nothing to do with the mother's ruin I suggest and just be coincidence but I'd probably still go to jail. Someone has to be blamed these days.

My granny could pour a tablespoon of ACV down my throat and tell me that will fix anything. If I say the same thing today online I could be accused of prescribing and they'll throw away the key. Yet, I can still give it to my daughter. The medical racketeers have me watching my shadow. It's madness. They are burning the witches again, who, in reality were the natural healers and herbalists of the time.

If you want a garden pharmacy I'd have the following as a minimum for most of the main conditions.

1. Cayenne.
2. Ginger
3. Garlic
4. Apple Cider Vinegar
5. One or more bitter herbs...

a) Sadao (Neem) is a natural pharmacy in and of itself. For many conditions.
b) Bua Bok (Gotu Kola) for nervous system, Alzheimer's, memory loss, immune system booster
c) Ya Luk Tai Bai for Kidneys, Liver, Low BP, diabetes, hypoglycemia, stress, anxiety

Other good ones are...
Samo Thai
Makham Pom

You can combine some of these, make tonics and tinctures or just juice them and drink it. You need to research for yourselves. As for me, I'm in the kitchen brewing a fresh 'broth' this week.

[Khundon1975]

Yes its interesting how the natural stuff works on external skin things etc. My chiropodist recommended tea tree oil for a fungal nail infection last year, and it certainly worked. But I suppose all medicines were originally derived from natural products. As I understand it Mr P is saying that modern pharmaceuticals have little to do with their origins now, which is true. Synthetic substitutes do concern me, but it seems that where oral medicines are concerned, the herbal alternatives aren't all they claim to be either. And as you rightly say they can be very expensive.
Especially for people who get free prescriptions anyway. There's little incentive to try natural remedies when the chemicals are free!
Perhaps Mr P could recommend some basic plant 'standbys' that are easy to grow and use?

Hi Margaret.

Yes some can be very expensive, when I was in HH last we checked prices of all the drugs I needed, one drug alone was £280 for 28 tablets and I take 13 different drugs, not including the Morphine and other pain relief.

I try, when I can, to use Tried and Tested Herbal remedies for conditions that can be cured by them, but have to be careful with some of them as Mr Plum pointed out, some of them when mixed with modern drugs, can be fatal.
My Doctor is very good and opened his mind to alternative remedies long ago.
I know when I ask him about using any of them with the modern medicines I am on, he will tell me yay or nay.

[Khundon1975]

Yes its interesting how the natural stuff works on external skin things etc. My chiropodist recommended tea tree oil for a fungal nail infection last year, and it certainly worked. But I suppose all medicines were originally derived from natural products. As I understand it Mr P is saying that modern pharmaceuticals have little to do with their origins now, which is true. Synthetic substitutes do concern me, but it seems that where oral medicines are concerned, the herbal alternatives aren't all they claim to be either. And as you rightly say they can be very expensive.
Especially for people who get free prescriptions anyway. There's little incentive to try natural remedies when the chemicals are free!
Perhaps Mr P could recommend some basic plant 'standbys' that are easy to grow and use?

I have mentioned a circulation tonic in another thread but am a little wary of providing details since someone pm'd me about it and asked for the recipe. Why? because if you are on medication, Warfarin for instance and you take a blast of concentrated Garlic and Cayenne, you'll probably bleed to death from the slightest nick!

I'm not really sure how to handle this yet and am giving it some thought. The cost of the ingredients aren't that cheap. I order fresh horseradish root from Bangkok. Tonics use Apple Cider Vinegar (the proper stuff). Tinctures use Vodka. This all adds up. If I offer it, I could be accused of acting in a commercial fashion. (selling snake-oil?) If I don't charge, I'm out of pocket.

The whole issue of what one can say and cannot say is also ridiculous. I'm not a doctor, clearly, but I am an enthusiast and increasingly paranoid. Everyone is interested until the day someone drops dead on your doorstep. It could have nothing to do with the mother's ruin I suggest and just be coincidence but I'd probably still go to jail. Someone has to be blamed these days.

My granny could pour a tablespoon of ACV down my throat and tell me that will fix anything. If I say the same thing today online I could be accused of prescribing and they'll throw away the key. Yet, I can still give it to my daughter. The medical racketeers have me watching my shadow. It's madness. They are burning the witches again, who, in reality were the natural healers and herbalists of the time.

If you want a garden pharmacy I'd have the following as a minimum for most of the main conditions.

1. Cayenne.
2. Ginger
3. Garlic
4. Apple Cider Vinegar
5. One or more bitter herbs...

a) Sadao (Neem) is a natural pharmacy in and of itself. For many conditions.
b) Bua Bok (Gotu Kola) for nervous system, Alzheimer's, memory loss, immune system booster
c) Ya Luk Tai Bai for Kidneys, Liver, Low BP, diabetes, hypoglycemia, stress, anxiety

Other good ones are...
Samo Thai
Makham Pom

You can combine some of these, make tonics and tinctures or just juice them and drink it. You need to research for yourselves. As for me, I'm in the kitchen brewing a fresh 'broth' this week.

Hi Mr Plum

I always read your posts and find them interesting, informative, well structured and humorous where appropriate.

As an adult I can pick bits out from the ingredients you mention, check with my Doc and also do a bit of Google work and then make an informed decision on whether to use them.

I have steered clear of Garlic/Cayenne mix as one of my problems is excessive bleeding, and as you say a small nick bleeds for days. also I hate any form of pepper.

As for ACV and garlic, well that has been poured down my crop for years now, about 3 Tbs a day plus a couple of cloves of garlic, and I love it.

As for being held responsible for posting receipts, I think you are safe, as long as you are talking about potions and other preparations that you have tried yourself.
All you are doing is posting about your personal experiences and as adults we can choose to try them or not.

My brother in law opened a big herbal supplement shop in Hobart about 5 months ago, it broke even after 2 months, and he is now looking for a site in Launceston to open another one, so it shows more and more people are looking for alternatives to Big Pharma.

Keep them coming Mr P, I for one enjoy reading them.

[richard]

Yes Mr P

Good stuff and I read with interest

As I suffer from DVT I'm on Warfarin and according to all the websites I'm not supposed to eat virtually anything especially fruits, herbs, red meat and spices

My Thai doc says 'rubbish everything in moderation is ok'

Difficult to know sometimes which way to turn

Love your postings though. Very imformative

[margaretcarnes]

Richard - sounds like you have a sensible Thai Doc! Moderation is probably the key. Although I can see how spicy foods and acidic fruits could be a problem with Warfarin, but red meat?

I can understand Mr Plums' reservations about being too specific on here, but thanks for the plant names Mr P!
The important point seems to be always consult your Doc at home before starting on any alternative remedies. (Isn't 'alternative' actually a misnomer for remedies which were around long before Glaxo Smith Klein?)
As Khundon rightly says some Western Docs are becoming more receptive to herbal medicine etc. And some GPs in the UK regularly refer patients for acupuncture now before trying more invasive or drug treatments.
BTW Khundon - you mentioned Morphine. We had a Danish friend in HH who carried an authority from his Danish doctor to allow him to buy it there. But you have made a very good point about the cost of some meds in LOS, and one which potential expats should may want to check on.

[Khundon1975]

Richard - sounds like you have a sensible Thai Doc! Moderation is probably the key. Although I can see how spicy foods and acidic fruits could be a problem with Warfarin, but red meat?

I can understand Mr Plums' reservations about being too specific on here, but thanks for the plant names Mr P!
The important point seems to be always consult your Doc at home before starting on any alternative remedies. (Isn't 'alternative' actually a misnomer for remedies which were around long before Glaxo Smith Klein?)
As Khundon rightly says some Western Docs are becoming more receptive to herbal medicine etc. And some GPs in the UK regularly refer patients for acupuncture now before trying more invasive or drug treatments.
BTW Khundon - you mentioned Morphine. We had a Danish friend in HH who carried an authority from his Danish doctor to allow him to buy it there. But you have made a very good point about the cost of some meds in LOS, and one which potential expats should may want to check on.

Hi Margaret

Yes I had to have prescription authority to carry my pills into Thailand, I was always afraid of having them confiscated at Don Muang.

Anyone coming here as you say, should check costs, mine ran at just over £1000 per month and also Insurance is impossible to get, so I had to hold 2 million in the bank at all times just in case, as good treatment in BKK can break the bank if things go badly wrong.