Ask here about the pleasures and pitfalls of buying, selling or renting property and real estate in Hua Hin. Building, design and construction topics welcome. Commercial or promotional posts for real estate companies or private properties are forbidden.
Super Joe wrote:Sorry klikster you just said that you were talking about land, but your first post was in response to a post that was talking about buying your dream home, you quoted it in your post.
when I read your first post about it being illegal I thought you were talking about a home. were you only talking about land only ? i'm confused now please clarify for me, thanks
Actually, the reason I responded in the way I did, was because the thread was about a shady land deal.
Under certain circumstances, a foreigner can own a house on a plot of land, but they cannot legally take title to the land. So if your dream home is a condo, you can own that legally under certain circumstances. But if your dream home includes the plot of freehold land on which it is built, you simply cannot own it as an individual.
Thai companies can own land legally. Several schemes involving proxy shareholders have been used in the past as a means of circumventing the alien property law, but most are illegal. The new government is making noises about cracking down on these types of companies. They actually could force dissolution of many existing companies that some say are "grandfathered".
Even a BOI promoted company can only own land so long as it a viable company. But if the "company" dissolves, the land must be sold to a Thai.
But don't take my word for it. If you are considering the purchase of a house, you should consult a knowledgeable and honest Thai attorney. The US Embassy website has a list that they consider reliable.
Do not take advice from property developers or sales agents.
klikster,
This last post, excepting the final line, was exactly what you should have said to start with, to make your point. The last line though, is needless and seems to illustrate some sort of personal problem that you may have had with agents or developers; if that is the case then you can only speak about those agents and developers, not make such a sweeping generalisation. If it is not the case, then what do you base your statement on? I can almost guarantee that there are way more satisfied customers of the agents and developers in Hua Hin than dissatisfied ones, but the latter are obviously more vocal, thus giving the impression that there is a big problem; I am guessing that this may be why you have said not to take advice from developers or agents, but most of them aren't crooks.
yes wanderlust that is what he should have started with, then his understanding of the situation would have been clear, rather than him answering a post about homes and later saying he was referring to land.
someone then could have advised him that in accordance with the land code he is wrong to state that it is illegal for foreigners to own land in thailand.
Super Joe wrote:
someone then could have advised him that in accordance with the land code he is wrong to state that it is illegal for foreigners to own land in thailand.
Huh - I thought it was, unless you have 40bm to buy 1 Ra1 (or something like that)?
Wanderlust wrote:The last line though, is needless and seems to illustrate some sort of personal problem that you may have had with agents or developers;
Actually, my last comment was the most important. Because one can't know about an agent's or developer's motivations, that is sufficient reason to not necessarily trust them. That's pretty basic in business transactions worldwide..
Wanderlust wrote:
if that is the case then you can only speak about those agents and developers, not make such a sweeping generalisation.
You mean like getting legal advice from competent attorneys .. another " .. sweeping generalisation." that most people understand.
Wanderlust wrote:If it is not the case, then what do you base your statement on?
You seem to have difficulty with concepts. Are you perhaps suggesting that potential buyers should rely more on the advice of agents than of attorneys?
Super Joe wrote:yes wanderlust that is what he should have started with, then his understanding of the situation would have been clear, rather than him answering a post about homes and later saying he was referring to land.
Okay, Super Joe", here is the title of the thread:
British 'developer' arrested on Samui in illegal land deal
Do you get the connection yet?
Super Joe wrote:
someone then could have advised him that in accordance with the land code he is wrong to state that it is illegal for foreigners to own land in thailand.
I am wrong in saying that it is illegal for foreigners to own land? You're joking, right?
kilkster you wrote
[/quote]I am wrong in saying that it is illegal for foreigners to own land? You're joking, right?
Some evidence please ... opinions don't count[/quote]
i thought i gave you a clue when i referred to the land code ..... try familiarising yourself with sections 86, 93 and 96, then your comments can be based on evidence/fact, rather than spouting your incorrect 'opinions'.
Joe - how about copying those regs here and helping the rest of us?
It's certainly my understanding from just about everyone I have spoken with - agents, developers, lawyers - that farang cannot own land.
I'm not talking about a company owning land, or the american thing, or the 1 rai for 40m baht, or lease, or usufruct(?), but physically having farangs name on the title deeds.
According to Section 86 of the Land Code, an alien may acquire land in Thailand only by virtue of the provision of a treaty providing him with the right to own immovable property. Obtaining such acquisition is subject to the provision of the Land Code and the Ministerial Regulations issued under the Code, and the permission must be obtained from the Ministry of Interior. Before the termination of the treaty which was made on February 27th, 1970, there were 16 countries bided to the treaty ; USA, England, Switzerland, Germany, Denmark, Norway, the Netherlands, France, India, Belgium, Sweden, Italy, Japan, Burma, Portuguese, and Pakistan. Since then, Thailand has no longer made any treaty with any country to allow an alien to acquire land in Thailand by virtue of a treaty.
However, the Land Code has been amended with Section 96 bis providing that since January 19th, 2002, an alien is allowed to purchase land in Thailand for residential purpose and the land to be purchased shall be not more than one rai in area, and the following rules and conditions must be met:
1. Bringing money not less than Baht forty million into the Kingdom for investment and maintaining the investment not less that five years;
2. Permission must be obtained from the Minister of Ministry of Interior;
3. Money brought into the Kingdom shall be invested in one of the following businesses or activities;
3.1 to purchase bonds of Thai Government, bonds of Thai National Bank, bonds of State Enterprise or bonds which the Ministry of Finance secures the capital or interest,
3.2 an investment in a property mutual fund, a property mutual fund or a mutual fund for resolving financial institution problems established under the law on Securities and Stock Exchange,
3.3 an investment in share capital of a juristic person who is granted permission of investment under the law on promotion of investment,
3.4 an investment in an activity as declared by the Board of Investment to be an activity eligible to be granted promotion of investment under the law on promotion of investment;
4. the land to be acquired shall be located in Bangkok Metropolis, Pattaya City, or Tessaban (Municipality), or in the area specified as residential zone according to the law on Town and Country Planning and shall not be located in a military safety zone according to the law on Military Safety Zone;
5. an alien, who is granted permission, shall utilize the land only for residence for his/herself and the family in a way that is not contrary to the local custom or good living of the local community;
6. if an alien, who is granted permission to acquire such land, does not comply with the rules and conditions specified, he/she shall disposes of such land in the portion of his/her possession within the period of time specified by the Director General of the Department of Lands which shall be not less than one hundred eighty days and not more than one year. If the time limit elapses, the Director General shall have the power to dispose of such land;
7. if an alien, who is granted permission to acquire such land, does not utilize the land for residence within two years as from the day the registration for land acquisition is made, the Director General shall have the power to dispose of such land.
Besides the aforementioned rules and conditions, an alien may acquire land by inheritance as statutory heir, in this instance, the land devolved when combined with the land already acquired shall not exceed that specified by law, for examples, land for residential purpose not exceeding 1 rai per household, land for commercial purpose not exceeding 1 rai, land for industrial purpose not exceeding 10 rais, and land for agricultural purpose not exceeding 10 rai per household.
An alien whose spouse is a Thai national either legitimate or illegitimate, that Thai national can purchase land but the alien spouse of that Thai national must give a joint written confirmation that the money which that Thai national will expend on purchasing the land is wholly the separate property or personal effects of that Thai national and not the Sin Somros or jointly acquired property.
Fees
(a) 0.01% of the valuation price, in the case of purchasing the land located in the land development project (this rate is due in December 2002)
(b) In the case other than (a) the fee is 2% of the valuation price
Taxes and duties
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The highlighting is mine.
Also, Amity treaty companies cannot own land.
Note: I believe what irritated a few folks here was the terse manner of my post, i.e., the information was not spoon-fed and convenient. And they really didn't like or want to hear the core facts of the message.
In Thailand, not everything is convenient nor do facts conform to expectations. I suggest getting used to those 2 ideas.
APPLICATION FOR ACQUISITION OF LAND OR CONDOMINIUM UNITS BY
ALIENS AND PERSONS CONNECTED WITH ALIENS
1. Application by Aliens for Acquisition of Land
Nowadays, an alien may apply for acquisition of land in Thailand in three cases as follows:
1.1 Receiving inheritance as a statutory heir under section 93 of the Land Code, in this instance, the total area including the land which has already been acquired (or has not yet been acquired) shall not exceed that specified in section 87 of the Land Code, i.e. not more than 1 rai for a residential purpose;
1.2 Bringing the money into the Kingdom for investment to the amount as prescribed in the Ministerial Regulation, which shall be not less than Baht forty million. In this instance, the land to be acquired must be for a residential purpose and must be of not more than 1 rai in area, provided also that permission must be obtained from the Minister. Under section 96 bis of the Land Code, the application for such acquisition of land shall be in accordance with rules, procedures and conditions prescribed in the Ministerial Regulation.
1.3 Applying for acquisition of land under other laws such as the Promotion of Investment Act, B.E. 2520 (1977), the Industrial Estate Authority of Thailand Act, B.E. 2522 (1979), the Petroleum Act, B.E. 2514 (1971). Detailed Information regarding the Promotion of Investment Act and the Industrial Estate Authority of Thailand Act can be obtained from the Board of Investment (BOI) at tel. + 66-2537-8111 and from the Industrial Estate Authority of Thailand at tel. +66-2253-0561 respectively.
2. Application by Aliens for Ownership in a Condominium Unit
An alien or a juristic person deemed by law as an alien may have ownership in a condominium unit in Thailand when 2 following conditions are satisfied. In the absence of either condition, the alien is not permitted to have ownership in a condominium unit.
2.1 Being an alien or juristic person deemed by law to be an alien under section 19 of the Condominium Act in any of the following prescribed categories viz:
(1) Being an alien permitted to have a residence in the Kingdom under the law on immigration, in this instance, the evidence required to be produced shall be a passport indicating the nationality of the alien, and the certificate of residence (either TM. 11, TM. 15 or TM. 17 Form, as the case may be) issued by the Immigration Division, National Bureau of the Royal Thai Police Force. In the case of an alien who possesses an alien identification card issued by the Police Station in whose jurisdiction the alien is domiciled, such card can be used as evidence for the purpose of applying for acquisition of ownership in a condominium unit in this case without production of a passport;
(2) Being an alien granted permission to enter into the Kingdom under the law on promotion of investment, in this instance, the evidence required to be produced shall be a passport indicating the nationality of the alien, and a letter of the Office of the Board of Investment certifying that the person is an alien granted permission to stay in Thailand under the law on promotion of investment;
(3) Being a juristic person deemed by law to be an alien under section 97 and 98 of the Land Code and has been registered as a juristic person under the laws of Thailand, in this instance, the evidence required to be produced shall be the evidence indicating the registration as a juristic person under the laws of Thailand, i.e. a certificate issued by the corporate Registrar of Department of Commercial Registration, Ministry of Commerce must be produced in the case of a limited company, a public limited company, a limited partnership or a registered ordinary partnership;
(4) Being a juristic person that is an alien under the Alien Business Operation Act B.E. 2542 (1999) and that is granted a certificate of promotion of investment under the law on promotion of investment, in this instance, the evidence required to be produced shall be a letter of the Office of the Board of Investment certifying that the person is granted promotion of investment under the law on promotion of investment;
(5) Being an alien or a juristic person deemed by law to be an alien, who brings a foreign currency into the Kingdom or withdraws the money from a non-resident Baht account or from a foreign currency account, the following evidence must be produced;
2.2 The ownership in condominium units by the alien and juristic person in 2.1 shall not be in a higher proportion than forty nine percent of the total space of all units in that condominium at the time of the application for condominium registration under section 6 with the exceptions that:
a. A condominium in which the condominium units are to be owned by the alien and/or the juristic person specified in 2.1 in a higher proportion than forty nine percent must be located in the area of Bangkok Metropolis, municipality or the City of Pattaya and the land on which the condominium is situated shall not, when combined with the land provided for common use or benefit of all co-owners, be more than five rai in area. Also, the condominium units in such condominium shall not be less than forty units and the condominium shall already be registered not less than one year prior to the date of application for the alien to own the condominium units in the proportion higher than forty nine percent, and such condominium shall not be situated in the area of military safety zone under the law on military safety zone.
b. It is provided in section 9 of the Condominium Act (No. 3), B.E.2542 that at the expiration of five years as from the date of the entry into force of the Condominium Act (No. 3), B.E. 2542 (28th April 1999) the provisions as set forth in a. shall be repealed and the alien or juristic person having obtained the condominium units under a. or the alien or juristic person specified in 2.1 to whom the condominium units are transferred from the aforesaid alien or juristic person may continue to have ownership in such condominium units although in the higher proportion than forty nine percent of the total space of all units in that condominium.
3. Application for ownership in land by a Thai national who has an alien spouse or ex- spouse or by a Thai national who is a minor child of an alien
3.1 In the case where a Thai national who has an alien legitimate spouse applies for permission to purchase land or accept a transfer of land in a similar case during marriage or cohabitation as husband and wife with an alien, as the case may be, if after the inquiry the applicant and the alien spouse have given a joint written confirmation that the money which that Thai national will expend on the purchase of the land is wholly the separate property of that Thai national and not the community property or the jointly acquired property, the competent official will proceed with the registration of rights and juristic act.
In the case where a Thai national whose spouse is an alien intends to purchase land or condominium unit but fail to give a joint written confirmation to the competent official as the alien spouse is being abroad, in this instance, an alien spouse shall make the statement declaring in written at the Royal Thai Embassy, Royal Thai Consulate or Notary Public that the money which that Thai national will expend on the purchase of the land or condominium unit is wholly the separate property of that Thai national and not the community property or property which an alien spouse has co-ownership in it. The competent official shall declare that the alien is an actual spouse of the Thai national and then submit to the competent land official who will proceed with the registration of rights and juristic act.
In the case where a Thai national whose spouse is an alien, after marriage, has already purchased or possessed the land and informed or submitted a false document declaring the married status of a Thai national as single or had not been married to an alien to the official prior to the date the letter of Ministry of Interior, most urgent no. MOI 0710/wor 792 dated 23 March 1999 was issued, or has already purchased or possessed the condominium unit after marriage and informed or submitted a false document declaring the married status of a Thai national as single or had not been married to an alien prior to the date the letter of the Department of Lands no. MOI 0710/wor 34167 dated 6 October 2000 was issued, such alien spouse, whether legitimate or illegitimate, and a Thai national shall together give a joint written confirmation, which later to be filed in the case-list (or dealing package), to the competent official that the money which that Thai national will expend on the purchase of the land or the condominium unit is wholly the separate property of that Thai national and not the community property or jointly acquired property. If an alien spouse is being abroad and not be able to come to give a joint written confirmation to the competent official, in this instance, the application shall be considered in accordance with the case that a spouse of a Thai national who intends to purchase land or a condominium unit is being aboard, then an applicant shall consign the statement, after completion, to the competent land official for filing in the case-list.
3.2 In the case where a Thai national who has an alien spouse, whether legitimate or illegitimate, applies for permission to accept a gift of land during marriage or cohabitation as husband and wife. If the inquiry reveals that the acceptance of the gift is made with the intention that the land will become the separate property or personal property of the donee without resulting in the alien having co-ownership in the land, the competent official will proceed with the registration of rights and juristic act.
3.3 In the case where a Thai national with an alien ex-spouse who is divorced or has ceased to cohabit or a Thai national who is a minor child of an alien applies for entering into a juristic act for the purpose of acquiring land, if an inquiry reveals no circumvention of law, the competent official will proceed with the registration of rights and juristic act.
4. Application for ownership in a condominium unit by a Thai national whose spouse or ex-spouse is an alien or by a Thai national who is a minor child of an alien
4.1 In the case where a Thai national who has an alien spouse, whether legitimate or illegitimate, applies for permission to purchase or accept a transfer of ownership in a condominium unit with the intention that the property will become the separate property or personal property of the former, (for this purpose, it is deemed that a condominium unit is owned by a Thai national) or in the case where a Thai national with an alien ex-spouse who is divorced or has ceased to cohabit or where a Thai national who is a minor child of an alien applies for the acquisition of ownership in a condominium unit, the application shall be considered in accordance with 3.1 to 3.3 mutatis mutandis.
4.2 In the case where a Thai national who has an alien spouse, whether legitimate or illegitimate, expends money which forms the community property or the jointly acquired property, as the case may be, for the purpose of purchasing a condominium unit, whether the purchase is made in the name of that Thai national alone or jointly in the name of the alien spouse as well, consideration shall principally be made of the alien. In this instance, the alien must be an alien within the meaning of section 19 (1), (2) or ( 5), as the case may be. The Thai national spouse is therefore entitled to purchase a condominium unit in accordance with the entitlement of the alien spouse and it shall be deemed that such condominium unit is wholly owned by that alien because the ownership in a condominium unit is indivisible and governed by section 19 bis.
4.3 In the case where a Thai national who has an alien spouse, whether legitimate or illegitimate, applies for permission to accept a gift of a condominium unit, such gift being made with the intention that the property will become the community property or such gift resulting in the alien having co-ownership therein, the alien spouse of that Thai national must be an alien within the meaning of section 19 (1) or (2) and it shall be deemed that the condominium unit is wholly owned by the alien and governed by section 19 bis. In contrast, a Thai national who has an alien spouse under section 19 (5) is not allowed to accept a transfer of a gift which is made with the intention that the property will become the community property because the case under section 19 (5) is one involving the application by an alien for permission to acquire ownership in a condominium unit in a manner of sale, in respect of which payment therefor must be made.
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Wanderlust wrote:The last line though, is needless and seems to illustrate some sort of personal problem that you may have had with agents or developers;
Actually, my last comment was the most important. Because one can't know about an agent's or developer's motivations, that is sufficient reason to not necessarily trust them. That's pretty basic in business transactions worldwide..[
klikster,
Believe it or not there are crooked lawyers around as well, so that is pot luck too; rather than picking out the agents and developers and including all of them in your statement (which by every definition is a sweeping generalisation), I believe you should have just said that you have to be careful with whoever you are dealing with as there are good and bad in every profession. Can I assume from this last post though, that you never take advice from anyone, and in fact never trust anyone so therefore never buy anything? That is essentially what you are advising, and I've never heard so much twaddle in my life! Anyone who is buying anything is always going to get a favourably biased report on whatever is being sold from the seller, and I really think anyone reading this forum already knows that, so your statement was needless.
klikster wrote:
Wanderlust wrote:
if that is the case then you can only speak about those agents and developers, not make such a sweeping generalisation.
You mean like getting legal advice from competent attorneys .. another " .. sweeping generalisation." that most people understand.
Well if you want to call that statement a sweeping generalisation that is your prerogative, but I can tell you now that it isn't! You haven't besmirched or criticised an entire group of people, just did what I suggested above and implied that there are good and bad in every profession.
klikster wrote:
Wanderlust wrote:If it is not the case, then what do you base your statement on?
You seem to have difficulty with concepts. Are you perhaps suggesting that potential buyers should rely more on the advice of agents than of attorneys?
I don't know how you make that leap from what I said! I just criticised the fact that you suggested that any agent or developer can't be trusted; I made no reference to who a buyer should consult, or placed them in any order of trustworthiness; what I implied though is that there are good agents and good developers out there, and I believe that they are in the majority. It seems to me that you are the one who is unable to understand simple statements, or simple concepts like reading what has been written and responding to that, and not what you imagine has been said.
Wanderlust wrote:
I don't know how you make that leap from what I said! I just criticised the fact that you suggested that any agent or developer can't be trusted
You might not get yourself in these mental tangles if you read what I write:
"Do not take advice from property developers or sales agents."
Rather than what you inferred (maybe selective memory?) from what I write
" .. the fact that you suggested that any agent or developer can't be trusted"
Especially when what you call "fact" .. simply isn't.
Klikster, You seem to be attacking everyone but some of your statements are confusing.
You posted section 86.
From what I read it is POSSIBLE for aliens to own land.
Personally I didnt see Super Joe as being pedantic. I thought that was a super description for Klikster.
Agents and developers serve a purpose. If you dont like them don't deal with them, but I, Klikster believe that you are in a sorry minority.
please clarify for me, thanks
