Thai condo owners not paying maint fees?

[Jimmy Canuck]

I was living in a housing estate Sth of HH. 1 Thai had not paid management fees for 4 years (60,000 Bht in arrears)...
Level playing field, justice, legal redress - forget it!

Thanks Charlesh. That's all pretty scary! Prob wise words of warning. Will bear it all in mind. Jimmy

[Jimmy Canuck]

In my old condo we had a "board" with all the names and room numbers of people who didn't paid. All thais and some of them with 25 000 bahts unpaid. The swimming pool was dirty, in the gym everything was broken,... i moved fast to another location.
My advice, stay away from condos.

Thank you Johan. Funny, I've read so many times that the best + safest move is to buy a foreign-ownership condo! Apart from just renting of course...
Could I ask - when you "moved fast to another location" - dod that one work out any better?
We found out in last few days that Samudra Residences (where we may buy shortly) just signed a contract with a hotel mgmt company, to manage the buildings on an on-going basis. professional mgmt should help, wouldn't you think? Jimmy

[wpcoe]

If it's properly a part of the rules/bylaws, which the owners voted upon, and as a condition of ownership, you agree to abide by the bylaws, legally it *should* be enforceable.

But, this is Thailand, and even murder -- which has laws against it and should be enforceable -- seems to be a slippery concept here.

It is something, though, that I think *should* be in the bylaws and rules. Of course, there should be a process of sending out say, 30-day deliquency notices and a reminder of the penalty, then 60-day and 90-day notices before turning off the utilities. It shouldn't be a silent turning utilities off the day after fees are due.

How does foreclosure work in Thailand? In Hawaii, I was president of a homeowner's association and I was astounded that about a half dozen owners had *never* paid a cent toward maintenance fees. We initiated foreclosure, but had to sign waivers to the state government and banks, that they got back taxes and unpaid mortgage payments before we would be eligible to get anything. We were advised by our lawyer that undoubtedly in foreclosure, we would not get ANY money, but it was worth it to get rid of the dead beats and start receiving maintenance fees for those units, so we did. I have NO idea how foreclosure works here in Thailand, though.

[Jimmy Canuck]

Jimmy, this is a problem in Thailand with condo ownership. Many feel they have paid for their unit and that's it... Its worth remembering that Thais generally avoid confrontation and keeping face is hugely important (I'm sure your wife has impressed that on you!).
Chok dee.

Thank you John. Once again! Lovable-thai-partner concurred with your understanding of Thai people.. Some bits of positive input on this topic now, that it may..... be sometimes enforceable in some ways to get people to pay-up on condo fees, and that higher-end buildings may.... have more responsible owners.
Lots of hard warnings here also though! One point to add - @ 40Baht/sqM the fees are about 25% of what we would pay in Canada on a same floor area condo, so if the fees were raised a bit to make up for a shortage it would still seem like a deal to us. I hope to hell there are no Thai juristics reading this! Prob a mistake to put that thought in writing,, Take care Johnny, we will prob be over to Oak Bay this summer to visit my sister, maybe we should say hi however briefly. Jimmy

[Jimmy Canuck]

If it's properly a part of the rules/bylaws, which the owners voted upon, and as a condition of ownership, you agree to abide by the bylaws, legally it *should* be enforceable.

But, this is Thailand, and even murder -- which has laws against it and should be enforceable -- seems to be a slippery concept here.....
How does foreclosure work in Thailand? In Hawaii, I was president of a homeowner's association and I was astounded that about a half dozen owners had *never* paid a cent toward maintenance fees. We initiated foreclosure, but had to sign waivers to the state government and banks, that they got back taxes and unpaid mortgage payments before we would be eligible to get anything. We were advised by our lawyer that undoubtedly in foreclosure, we would not get ANY money, but it was worth it to get rid of the dead beats and start receiving maintenance fees for those units, so we did. I have NO idea how foreclosure works here in Thailand, though.

Should i call you wp?? Here in Canada, if you are a few months late (they might wait 6 months..) then the Strata Council, or Mgmt Co would put a lein on your unit, eventually forcing a sale if you don't catch up.
Somehow it was encouraging to us (but sorry you had to go through it!) that Hawaii has it's share of deadbeat owners also! Prob a bit easier to enforce there though. Thanks wp... mr coe? Jimmy

[Jimmy Canuck]

Jimmy, this is a problem in Thailand with condo ownership. Many feel they have paid for their unit and that's it. They don't understand that its also their investment and can go to heck in a hurry if things aren't kept up.

Agree, a few years back when times were better I looked at condos for a rental investment...
The above is a pessimistic view, and the majority of the time I'm sure it'll be fine and you'll get 30 years plus,
SJ

SuperJoe - really really appreciate the time you take to offer us helpful advice. Sorry, when I edited down your quote so's it wouldn't take up too much room I ended it on your positive note! Because my nature is to not expect the worst, as it usually doesn't happen anyway.. I have always been fairly lucky in life! So.... maybe Thailand will destroy me and bring me to my knees pulling my hair out in exasperation some day, maybe not.. time will tell:) In the meantime, Tas + I have to commit in the next 24 hrs or so, or back out. What to do.... what to do.... We do own one condo outrite here already, rented out to exc tenants, and the bank only owns about half of our condo we live in. We would never invest all our property money in LOS, a little scary for that.
I think it's prob good news? what I wrote to another poster on this topic, that Samudra just signed a hotel mgmt company to manage the residences there on an on-going basis. Must be a good thing?
Liked your comment re Thais also not wanting to maintain/change oil etc on their cars also! Although I'm sure they're not all like that... we may be generalizing a bit here.
Many thanks Super Joe.

[kalbow]

We found out in last few days that Samudra Residences (where we may buy shortly) just signed a contract with a hotel mgmt company, to manage the buildings on an on-going basis. professional mgmt should help, wouldn't you think? Jimmy

Hey Jimmy - do you know who the hotel management company is? It might be worth researching them, also enquiring about how they enforce the payments of maintenance. I must confess this is something I hadn't thought of when buying my condo. I will be making some enquiries with my condo's management about this when I get back to HH.

Also some good ideas from a previous post about keeping management costs down - where I am these have gone up around 20% in 2 years!

Cheers Kalbow

[Jimmy Canuck]

Thanks Kalbow. Just re-checked, they are signing shortly,, so not done yet - with a 'renowned' hotel mgmt co. Didn't specify which one, but there was reference on Samudra Retreat's website previously that they planned to engage Xen Hotel + Resort management. We did just try to look up the company, which seems to be owned or run by Michael Thomas who is a major player in the development of Samudra Residences.... but all of the company's websites just show up as "URL not found".. etc. Little bit strange, don't understand that. Maybe it's a diff co they are planning to contract now, not sure yet, but Xen shows up on other 'hits' as builders and managers of 5 hotels in Thailand etc etc - so where is their website???? Jimmy

[FatBoy]

Not sure how this would work on a condo but previously I lived on a gated community complex where a lot of the individual owners (Thai and Farang) would not pay maintenance fees. Committee (including paying Thai's) met, agreed to install electronic "card operated" gates with costs apportioned to ALL owners. Paying owners ONLY received gate opening cards. No card, no access.
They soon paid up including their cost of the gates!

[Jimmy Canuck]

Thanks for that FatBoy. Another case of finding a way to enforce payment of maint fees, very encouraging! Jimmy

[Super Joe]

SuperJoe - really really appreciate the time you take to offer us helpful advice. Sorry, when I edited down your quote so's it wouldn't take up too much room I ended it on your positive note! Because my nature is to not expect the worst, as it usually doesn't happen anyway...
In the meantime, Tas + I have to commit in the next 24 hrs or so, or back out. What to do.... what to do....

Your welcocome Jimmy. I certainly wouldn't back out if I were in your situation, ie: you own one already so have 'condo experience', and have looked into the developer in Cha Am and feel confident in them. My situation was different in that I've never owned one and condo life is a bit 'alien' to us Brits, plus we'd just had our boy so inheritence was as much a factor in a purchase than investment (renting it), so built our own in the end.

do you know who the hotel management company is? It might be worth researching them, also enquiring about how they enforce the payments of maintenance.

Again this is only pessimistic, worse-case secario but I read on another Thai site that appointing 'Hyatt Condo Management Services' initially and replacing them a few years later with 'Brother-in-Law Management Services' can happen if the ulterior motive was there. Sometimes developer & friends retain a fair few units, so influence. But if the developer's reputable and successful then I don't see this issue that I just mentioned being a relevant concern.

If it's properly a part of the rules/bylaws, which the owners voted upon, and as a condition of ownership, you agree to abide by the bylaws, legally it *should* be enforceable. But, this is Thailand, and even murder -- which has laws against it and should be enforceable -- seems to be a slippery concept here.
It is something, though, that I think *should* be in the bylaws and rules. Of course, there should be a process of sending out say, 30-day deliquency notices and a reminder of the penalty, then 60-day and 90-day notices before turning off the utilities. It shouldn't be a silent turning utilities off the day after fees are due

Just had a quick look at the condo act 2008 (available on many website) and there is a process for non-paying of fees, but i've only extracted part of that here...
From Condo Act: "A Joint Owner with an amount in arrears under Section 18 from six months and upwards may be suspended from receiving common services or using common property as set forth under the By-laws including the non-existence of the right to vote in the General Meeting."
So suspending services is an option after 6 months, and so is access to the common property like the whole of the land the building sits on, although from what I've seen of disputes/legal matters here in Thailand I'm convinced the following from Nereus would apply first, and applicable regulations/contracts second...

You can have all the regulations that can be thought up, but when you are dealing with both, people that have no concern for anyone else, coupled with a questionable court and legal system, it all comes down to the owners involved. The first thing that you have to accept is that; what is the rule in your own country has absolutely no relevance here.

But at the end of the day it's just 'one' element of risk, the freehold ownership is a massive positive that removes one of the risks of houses, I might kicked out by the government or my wife tomorrow morning

SJ

[TypicallyTropical]

Somehow it was encouraging to us (but sorry you had to go through it!) that Hawaii has it's share of deadbeat owners also!

After the $#*! hit the financial and real estate markets the number of deadbeats skyrocketed in Hawaii. I have lived here for 20+ years, all in condos, but it has never been an issue until the last 5-6 years. As the deadbeats are being foreclosed on, fortunately we are getting back to the "normal" times of having condo owners that can afford to own a condo instead of the speculators that would have never owned condos had it not been to the "funny" mortgages. In our 144-unit complex we only have four owners that are behind with their payments. We also have it in our bylaws that a late fee is assessed if you are 15 days late with your payment, and all future payments are applied to the LATE FEES first!

[Jimmy Canuck]

[quote="Super Joe" Again this is only pessimistic, worse-case secario but I read on another Thai site that appointing 'Hyatt Condo Management Services' initially and replacing them a few years later with 'Brother-in-Law Management Services' can happen if the ulterior motive was there. Sometimes developer & friends retain a fair few units, so influence. But if the developer's reputable and successful then I don't see this issue that I just mentioned being a relevant concern...
But at the end of the day it's just 'one' element of risk, the freehold ownership is a massive positive that removes one of the risks of houses, I might kicked out by the government or my wife tomorrow morning

SJ[/quote]

Much appreciated SJ. We did check out the developer - lots of experience, and our friend who is a manager in a thai bank looked into them also and said good things... will give you all an update shortly. Jimmy

[Jimmy Canuck]

After the $#*! hit the financial and real estate markets the number of deadbeats skyrocketed in Hawaii. I have lived here for 20+ years, all in condos, but it has never been an issue until the last 5-6 years. As the deadbeats are being foreclosed on, fortunately we are getting back to the "normal" times... We also have it in our bylaws that a late fee is assessed if you are 15 days late with your payment, and all future payments are applied to the LATE FEES first!

Thanks TT, pretty similar rules here in Canada. Anyways appreciate the input. Did any of the places (condos) you saw in HH interest you enough to consider buying? We assumed that when you said you liked Samudra and would have been happy to buy there, if they had had the floorplan you wanted, that it was prob the absence of 1 bdr units that turned you away...? Your post on my earlier topic on Samudra (re looking at lots of condos in HH) was very helpful to us, owe you one for that! Jimmy

[TypicallyTropical]

Thanks TT, pretty similar rules here in Canada. Anyways appreciate the input. Did any of the places (condos) you saw in HH interest you enough to consider buying? We assumed that when you said you liked Samudra and would have been happy to buy there, if they had had the floorplan you wanted, that it was prob the absence of 1 bdr units that turned you away...? Your post on my earlier topic on Samudra (re looking at lots of condos in HH) was very helpful to us, owe you one for that! Jimmy

I actually wanted a 2BD/2BA unit. I ended up reserving a 2BD/2BA at The Banyan since that was the only other one I liked. However, after learning that they stopped paying the rent to the owners, I'm not sure if I will go through with the purchase. Since I would only consider a "resort condo" my choices are pretty limited. I liked the Palm Hills environment too, but I didn't like the units there. Fortunately, I have three years to buy!