Political un-rest and rally

[cozza]

Sarge,

There are a few people who obviously do not agree with you, you call it a gang, I call it a different point of view...I said the Red supporters are quiet, you and a couple others responded...you have declared you were no Red/UDD supporter, what happened?

I am with you 110% when you talk about the plight of these poor people (I don't mean financially). But, the simple fact is they burnt half of Bangkok and used violence. Why would anyone treat them any other way? They act like thugs, they get treated like thugs...they are not helping themselves.

You say that Sondhi is the puppet master behind Abhisit, thats funny, sounds like UDD propaganda to me.

[pharvey]

Great excuse by Jeff Savage...... "I was emotional and full of steroids"... TW@T! So what's the Thai law on drugs/steroids then? Caught on film threatening arson and looting, now in print admitting to steroid abuse. Smart lad, makes you proud to be British!!

[cozza]

Sarge,

Put this into perspective, think of that Westerner threatening to burn and loot central world, now think of it actually happening by the UDD/Red supporters by order of the leaders. What does that tell you about this organisation?

Come on Sarge, these people are clearly trouble makers and sore losers. Actions speak louder than words and their actions are those of thugs, not revolutionaries.

Forget Democracy, it doesn't exist. All there is is power hungry thugs that are more childish than my 6 month old daughter.

[PeteC]

[Roel]

Of course the concept of democracy does exist. The problem is it is a theoretical model that does not always work the way it is supposed to work. Certainly not in Thailand because of (I repeat) this:

Well a village school here is a joke by western standards. Many of the children are retarded and can intake the basic teachings but struggle with maths and reading and writing. This is also aggravated by attendance figures. When the rice and cane are to be sown or reaped the families expect their children to help. Consequently many children leave school at an early age with very little knowledge.

Many are condemned to village life and working the fields and can hardly read or write Thai. At home they don’t even speak Thai. Laos/Thai instead. Not being able to read their only intake of news is the 6am propaganda messages broadcast across the village from speakers.

Courtesy: Richard in his reflections on life in Isaan: http://www.huahinafterdark.com/forum/vi ... =7&t=13392

And all these people will have a vote and all these people will do exactly as the village headman orders them to do. Yes I said "orders", not advise.

[sargeant]

You say that Sondhi is the puppet master behind Abhisit,

no i dont and never have
i suggest you get yourself better informed you obviously dont know who it is or you wouldnt make silly mistakes like that
having that huge hole in your knowledge says you cannot evaluate what is happening here what and who is influencing what let alone what has happened from day one of Mr T and why

.you have declared you were no Red/UDD supporter, what happened?

reading isnt your strong point either i have said it time after time i support democracy despise dictatorship and as the UDD are the ONLY song in the jukebox i therefore lean to their cause.
However on political policy as i am right of centre ideologicaly i would probaly support the democratic party on policy but only when there is true democracy and no dictator
You see i know how to prioritise

I am with you 110% when you talk about the plight of these poor people (I don't mean financially) . But, the simple fact is they burnt half of Bangkok and used violence. Why would anyone treat them any other way? They act like thugs, they get treated like thugs...they are not helping themselves.

please instead of talking rubbish tell me what these people do when peacefull protest over weeks and months with 100s of thousands taking part are ignored especially as this was there second attempt at peaceful protest they had already had their arses kicked once and shed blood
you expect them to just pack up and go home and forget it please get real

these people are clearly trouble makers andsore losers. Actions speak louder than words and their actions are those of thugs, not revolutionaries.

for crying out loud what planet are you on Mr T won twice yellow shirts protested a coup de tat followed, called by the dictator, TRT PPP won again yellow shirts rioted rigged judges and PPP and Samak gone Rigged judges and yellow shirts and somchai gone
and you come up with the red shirts are sore loser for gods sake man get some grip on reality the sore losers are the elite/yellow shirts

[STEVE G]

And all these people will have a vote and all these people will do exactly as the village headman orders them to do. Yes I said "orders", not advise.

I've been in an Issan village for two national elections and that wasn't what I experienced.
My partners family is politically active and I was actually surprised by the amount of time that people spent sat around reading and discussing the various election leaflets that were being handed out. In fact I was in England before the recent general election and I saw less interest there.
Certainly many people are influenced by the consensus of what is best for the village, they are like a big family in that, but nobody was ordered to vote.
Money is hardly the issue it's made out to be either, as all the major parties were paying 100 bt, including the Democrats.
No candidate in that area got anywhere near 100% of the vote, so people are clearly making a choice.
In my opinion, one of the most divisive problems in Thailand at the moment is the constant refrain that the rural farmer is too stupid or corupt to be given the vote.
The central Thais are increadibly bigoted towards people from the outlying areas, but when you consider how many of them derive their wealth from abuse of position, I don't see how they are in anyway superior.

[caller]

Caller said,

And is there there any value in posting anything from The Nation or Bangkok Post anymore?

So we are only supposed to read what YOU think is suitable and correct?

A bit hypocritical dont you think? Whos the FASCIST now?

Er, the 'fascist' thing was a joke - did you not see the smiley?

Feel free to carry on reading whatever appeals, especially if it gives you the news and views you want to hear - didn't we already have this discussion!?

[PeteC]

News » Investigative Report
The Wheel of Life turned at Ratchaprasong
Many sense something important is changing in Thailand. Actually it's just repeating. If we understand what's the same this time, and what differs, we can see more clearly the meaning of the present events

http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/investi ... chaprasong

* Published: 23/05/2010 at 01:30 AM
* Online news: Investigative Report

The United Front for Democracy against Dictatorship (UDD) presents itself as combating present power holders, to advance the interests of those neglected at the bottom and particularly in the countryside. They identify their enemy as the military-bureaucratic- aristocratic-royalist nexus dominating state policy. They assert that deposed prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra was genuinely helping those kept under foot by this power elite, and that he was removed for that reason alone.

It is certainly true that Thaksin innovated many policies with an unprecedented focus on those lower in the social and economic scale and outside the capital city. As a clever businessman and aspiring politician, he clearly saw the market opening left by self-satisfied rulers in the capital. He built a powerful support base among those denied both symbolic and material rewards.

Some novelties had genuine merit and long-term viability; others were financially unviable yet a hit with the public.

Another innovation undid him - a personal inability to follow the Middle Way of compromise and accommodation, seen in his insistence on dominating every sector of the economy and state on behalf of his family and friends - banking, communications, the press, foreign affairs, the courts, the police. At the end he was moving on the military and the last bastion of resistance, the palace. His departure exemplified the novelty of his approach to controlling the state.

Predecessors have in a typically Thai way risen, taken their share, and (mostly) left the table with a smile to enjoy their winnings in Thailand or abroad. Thaksin declined to share, was rejected and declined quietly to accept his rejection. Since he lacks materially for nothing for this and a hundred future lifetimes, one must assign his behaviour to a quirky personality or failed socialisation into Thai politesse.

Is there any evidence as to the real purpose of the deposed PM? His first fortune came from a sweetheart deal selling radios to the police, his former employer. The use of monopoly also led to his next fortune - violating an international agreement banning the unrestricted locking of GSM SIM cards and handsets. The next step was securing near monopolies in the various spheres of political and economic power, for the same purpose - to magnify his family's fortune.

To become in a few years one of the richest families in the Kingdom entailed heavy doses of corruption and abuse of power. To control the political and legal systems and so prevent crackdowns on this corruption, a political base was necessary. Thaksin's populist policies were simply an expedient to gain this political base. Amounts spent for such programmes were trivial compared with the loot in hand, and it was not the looters' money that funded such programmes.

And were the neglected (the red shirt followers we still see in the streets) upset to be thus used? Not at all, if you ask them. They reply that of course Thaksin was corrupt; that is the goal of political power. But at least he gave them something. It was, and is, a marriage of convenience.

THE CYCLE REPEATS

So was the Ratchaprasong rally, as billed, actually an assault by the deprived on their oppressors?

No. It was an assault by an aspiring fragment of the elite denied power by the traditionally dominant. Country folk are only tools, and it's not the first time. We can learn a lot by looking back to the People's Party of 1932, a group of upwardly mobile Thais (many sent abroad on government grants) who felt their prospects didn't match their credentials, and who resented the self-seeking of the aristocratic-royalist nexus of the day at the expense of the public at large. Redistributive policies - prefiguring Thaksin's - were put in place, with harsh words for the royalists - prefiguring today's red shirts.

This aspiring elite fragment brought constitutional rule; it also brought the nation's first experience of class warfare. Some died in the ensuing Boworadet Rebellion, a lot of assets of the ruling class were confiscated, and the king went into exile.

Eventually (to shorten a very long story) a self-interested military faction among the People's Party gained the upper hand over the public-interested civilian faction, made its own deal with remnants of the ancient regime, and gave us the military-bureaucratic-aristocratic-royalist nexus ruling today.

The underclass for whom the People's Party seized power were lost to sight. The rulers genially ruled, and rule, over a highly corrupt polity that poorly serves its public. They survive their neglect of the public due to the nation's wealth and to the charming deference of the Thai people.

Why are the red shirts' shirts red? The colour proclaims a return to class warfare as a political stratagem, as does their constant invocation of the deprecated term phrai for commoners.

Let us look ahead by considering the People's Party's past. Their leaders had a normal mix of personal and ideal motives, but eventually idealism lost and concern for the public was abandoned. This despite leader Pridi Banomyong's commitment to ideal values, to the rule of law and to his country (shown by the risk he took supporting the Free Thai while regent, under the noses of the Japanese).

The red shirts lack a leader of such moral stature as Pridi, and are bankrolled by an angry fugitive, lacking in mindfulness and focussed solely on recovering his fortune, power, reputation and personal liberty. If Pridi failed, it is hard to believe that the red shirts will not abandon the neglected as soon as they take their place in the circle of power.

In 1932, interior minister Prince Paribatra Sukhumbhand dithered on the evening of June 23 in ordering the arrest of People's Party leaders, whose plan he had discovered. And so the next day their coup d'etat succeeded, changing the course of Thai history. Did the events at Ratchaprasong display a comparable dithering? The present leaders announced political plans and deadlines, then withdrew them, announced crackdown measures and did not implement them, then announced a clearing operation without effective follow-through. Defiant crowds milled about blocking the centre of the nation's capital for weeks before forceful measures were taken to end the protest.

In fact, merciful methods exist for dealing promptly with such situations. They end when a force arrives in darkness, tears aside the barricades at both ends (one announced for free exit) and enters with a solid rank in close-order formation covered by water cannon and tear gas. Noise and light shock and demoralise those who have surrounded themselves in an enclosed space. The matter (at least in the city centre) is over by daybreak as the leaders are captured.

The action moves elsewhere - the courts, parliament, the countryside. No live ammunition is provided to the troops; else a bloody and needless tragedy ensues, as has now happened.

The Kingdom's decrepit legal system is now at least beginning to twitch under the King's relentless encouragement. Should the red shirts take power in one way or another, prospects for the rule of law in the Kingdom (never very bright) will be poor indeed due to the methods they have chosen to use, the demands of their paymaster and of course the precedent set in 2009 by the yellow shirts. The red shirts embody a seriously aggrieved force in Thai society and they are not going away. Should they take power with their present vision, one could at best hope for the continuation of the present stagnation. Many are mystified why none among them sees the fantastic opportunity identified by their deposed predecessor.

Everyone at the top, or aspiring to be there, understands that to rule Thailand is to live in impunity and grow rich fast. Billions are at stake, a number worth killing for to get or to keep. Only the intelligent exercise of power will settle this conflict.

Who now has that vision, on either side? If no one, we are in for a long struggle.

Jeffrey Race is an expert in Southeast Asian history and politics and the author of 'War Comes to Long An: Revolutionary Conflict in a Vietnamese Province'.

[caller]

Predecessors have in a typically Thai way risen, taken their share, and (mostly) left the table with a smile to enjoy their winnings in Thailand or abroad. Thaksin declined to share, was rejected and declined quietly to accept his rejection. Since he lacks materially for nothing for this and a hundred future lifetimes, one must assign his behaviour to a quirky personality or failed socialisation into Thai politesse.

I didn't find much new in that article and for what its worth, agree with much of it. But I did find the above paragraph interesting. In that it doesn't even consider the view of the electorate, which is probably true in how it has always been - until now.

It makes no claim that Thaksin was 'rejected' by fair or democratic means, just 'rejected' and his crime appears to be in not accepting it, suggesting this trait is the natural 'Thai way'.

It's actually a sad reflection of how he power brokers rule the roost in LOS and implies his mistake was not to party with the establishment, which I believe true and one of his biggest errors.

Maybe the Bkk Post is confident the power brokers won't understand the implication of what has been written?

[buksida]

two words-------BLOODY HYPOCRITE he also cannot be trusted to keep his word

Well said sarge - this effectively is what every red shirt amounts to by supporting billionaire Thaksin.

[STEVE G]

The underclass for whom the People's Party seized power were lost to sight. The rulers genially ruled, and rule, over a highly corrupt polity that poorly serves its public. They survive their neglect of the public due to the nation's wealth and to the charming deference of the Thai people.

This statement seems to point towards an obvious conclusion.
If the establishment redressed the balance by serving the people better, it would be much more difficult for them to be misused for political gain by the likes of Thaksin.
If they did more to increase the income of rural areas it would remove much of the problem, they should be encouraging investment in these areas to stimulate growth.
They should put a bit more effort into increasing the wealth of the poor instead of just themselves.

[Super Joe]

But I doubt very much the HHAD gang would resort to burning their own children's schools down, burning to death 10 people in a shopping mall, and start a grilla worefair campaign.

Why because you think you are superior dream on try the IRA and the protestants. You can only sit there in your smug arrogance because people a long long time ago gave up their lives for you to have a nice cushy life I respect their sacrifice you obviously don't.

Why you ask, errr because I don't reckon HHAD members would want to become terrorists and start killing people .... is this for real
Also, if you bothered to read my posts you'd know how daft your above accusations are. I'm not fooled by either side, they're politicians, I'm simply anti the side who I believe is causing the chaos, its reds now and it was yellows before that I was criticising on here back in 2008.

Just because some of us haven't been brainwashed by the propaganda doesn't mean we dont support the poor and their aspirations, wifes Buriram school now has computers blah blah blah, we also spend time with the family or builders in their Tin Shacks(™Sarge) blah blah blah, difference is some don't feel the need to post about it every other day.

This is what the then leader of the opposition Abhisit Vejjajiva said about PM Somchai Wongsawat following the death of two PAD protesters in October 2008

Mr A could be right in what he said because there wasn't a state of emergency in force at the time. Haven't the foggiest if there's been anything similar with Mr A and his state of emergencies, but if there has then the same applies to him, I've already posted that he's lost credibility for certain things. But Christ he gave them enough time and a face-saving way forward but they backed him into a corner, the camp crackdown just had to be done. Now there's stacks of evidence emerging about what the troops really had to face, how many weapons, bombs etc are out there.

Did Mr T, Samak or Somchai get 5 or 6 months

You can Liebfraumilch all you like about unequal treatment, (since when has politics been a fair business), but your own assessment of how they failed the people regarding the road map is spot on to me …… Sarge wrote: "saying that what is happening in BKK has to be laid firmly at the feet of the UDD leadership they had won and then threw it away with stupidity"

SJ

[charlesh]

In my opinion, one of the most divisive problems in Thailand at the moment is the constant refrain that the rural farmer is too stupid or corupt to be given the vote.
The central Thais are increadibly bigoted towards people from the outlying areas, but when you consider how many of them derive their wealth from abuse of position, I don't see how they are in anyway superior.

Funny, the central Thais I know work on their farms too! Does that make them stupid - probably yes if they believe in a bloke who has amassed billions of Bht in a relatively short time by allegedly not paying taxes, fudging company transactions and overcharging for services to his adoring clients.

[STEVE G]

Yes, I was referring to the Bangkok elite part of central Thailand rather than farmers.
I'm not a supporter of Thaksin, but there are valid reasons why people in Issan and the north feel aggrieved enough to follow someone like that.