Tax residency in Thailand and taxing overseas income

[Big Boy]

Oh, there was one other thing that the lady mentioned in passing. There will be a certificate issued that will need to be produced at visa renewal time.

[404cameljockey]

Thanks BB, good to have a first-hand experience.

• A bank statement showing all foreign income for 2024

I presume this means a Thai bank statement proving provenance of the overseas income brought into Thailand, like the statements a Thai bank issues for yearly visa purposes to show that funds have come from overseas. I will certainly not be providing any further than that, they will have to rely on any Thai income tax form I fill in to declare whether from pensions, overseas rental income, etc.. If/when I complete a Thai tax return.

[Big Boy]

Yes, she asked where my income came from. I explained it was a UK pension from which I transferred money every month. She said I would need to provide a letter/statement from the bank showing these foreign currency transactions, so I see nothing different to what we already supply to Immigration.

[buksida]

I've said from the start that I don't really see why Immigration need to be involved with the tax issue. However, you are probably right, TIT, expect the unexpected.

There will be a certificate issued that will need to be produced at visa renewal time.

Well, that is the crux of everything, as it looks like immigration will get involved to enforce compliance (as they do with non-imm B visas) if this is accurate.

So now its a waiting game to see who is the first to get their visa renewal rejected for not having the tax certificate (ภงด91) after they bring in the new requirement.

[Big Boy]

Yes, it does seem belt and braces. However the actual tax bit will be done by the tax experts, which is important to me. I was struggling to understand how Immigration Officers were suddenly going to become tax experts. Producing the tax certificate to Immigration will be no different to being asked to produce your driving licence if stopped by the traffic police.

[buksida]

I was struggling to understand how Immigration Officers were suddenly going to become tax experts.

They're not; they’ll just make sure all non-imm visa holders have complied with the tax reporting/payment requirement, which the certificate proves.

Producing the tax certificate to Immigration will be no different to being asked to produce your driving licence if stopped by the traffic police.

Not really comparable. There may be quite a few looking for somewhere else to live for 180 days per year in light of this as not everyone is in the "I'm alright Jack" situation that you are.

[kwajdiver]

Thanks Big Boy for posting about your experience.

So, it looks like they are only looking at money deposited into a person’s Thai bank account.

Also, based on readings on other forums there is a big question as to whether you even need to even file a Thai tax return if you brought no money into Thailand that is taxable per a treaty between Thailand and your home country, or if it is pre 2024 savings.

I guess the woman/tax office will have to be an expert on 70+ different tax treaties. In referring to you she was talking about how much tax you paid on your UK pension, but the tax treaty between the U.S. and Thailand says that U.S. government pensions cannot be taxed by Thailand; therefore, it is not relevant to Thailand regarding how much tax a person already paid on their U.S. government pensions.

I don’t have a yellow book, and I wonder how many others on retirement extensions also do not have a yellow book.

So, another trip to Immigration to get a residency certificate, and a second trip to the bank to get Thai bank documents.

It will be interesting to see - similar to Immigration – if when people go to other tax offices if they get told something different.

ARTICLE 20 of the U.S. tax treaty between Thailand and the U.S.
Pensions and Social Security Payments

1. Subject to the provisions of paragraph 2 of Article 21 (Government Service), pensions and other similar remuneration paid to a resident of a Contracting State in consideration of past employment shall be taxable only in that State.
2. Notwithstanding the provisions of paragraph 1, social security benefits and other similar public pensions paid by a Contracting State to a resident of the other Contracting State or a citizen of the United States shall be taxable only in the first-mentioned State.

[Big Boy]

Not really comparable. There may be quite a few looking for somewhere else to live for 180 days per year in light of this as not everyone is in the "I'm alright Jack" situation that you are.

No, I'm not trying to gloat (I've not achieved anything yet - just started, with a way to go). I know a few who are moving out of Thailand for half of each year to avoid the debacle. I don't envy them. However, my tax was roughly calculated as 26,500฿ per annum based on an income of 75,000฿ per month. If you are visibly earning (bringing into the country) 75,000฿ or less each month, 26,500฿ might be a cheaper option, with a lot less upheaval.

Don't forget, my "I'm alright Jack" situation is because I'm already paying a shit load of UK tax.

BTW the tax treaty doesn't take into account how much you earn, it is how much tax you pay, which can be offset against Thai tax. Because the UK tax rate is so much higher than Thailand, you UK earnings can be much more than you might think i.e. I was fearfull that bringing money across for my wife's operation last year could have put me above the Thai threshold, but the way it was explained, I'd have to be bringing in excess of 300,000฿ per month into Thailand before I'd have to pay tax.

[kwajdiver]

It will be interesting to see - similar to Immigration – if when people go to other tax offices if they get told something different.

Take these comments below for what they are – comments posted today on another forum.
As I have said before, it is not the actual tax that bothers me as much as having to try and navigate a Thai bureaucracy.

Posted 56 minutes ago
Went to my tax office again, explained to them I get pensions from the UK, pay tax in the UK.
Thay yet again said "due to the double taxation agreement you won't pay tax here"
If Immigration should mention it I just show them proof of my tax payments.

Posted 14 minutes ago
I'll think about it when and if it happens. But I would not take any statement from TRD on immigration with any credibility.

According to a previous statement by the Superintdent of Chonburi and yesterday Superintendent of CM, there are no plans to introduce the requirement to provide proof of income tax payments, in order to be granted a renewal of visas.

But.....this is Thailand....so who knows

[thecolonel]

Thanks Big Boy for posting about your experience.

So, it looks like they are only looking at money deposited into a person’s Thai bank account.

Also, based on readings on other forums there is a big question as to whether you even need to even file a Thai tax return if you brought no money into Thailand that is taxable per a treaty between Thailand and your home country, or if it is pre 2024 savings.

I guess the woman/tax office will have to be an expert on 70+ different tax treaties. In referring to you she was talking about how much tax you paid on your UK pension, but the tax treaty between the U.S. and Thailand says that U.S. government pensions cannot be taxed by Thailand; therefore, it is not relevant to Thailand regarding how much tax a person already paid on their U.S. government pensions.

I don’t have a yellow book, and I wonder how many others on retirement extensions also do not have a yellow book.

So, another trip to Immigration to get a residency certificate, and a second trip to the bank to get Thai bank documents.

It will be interesting to see - similar to Immigration – if when people go to other tax offices if they get told something different.

ARTICLE 20 of the U.S. tax treaty between Thailand and the U.S.
Pensions and Social Security Payments

1. Subject to the provisions of paragraph 2 of Article 21 (Government Service), pensions and other similar remuneration paid to a resident of a Contracting State in consideration of past employment shall be taxable only in that State.
2. Notwithstanding the provisions of paragraph 1, social security benefits and other similar public pensions paid by a Contracting State to a resident of the other Contracting State or a citizen of the United States shall be taxable only in the first-mentioned State.

"Also, based on readings on other forums there is a big question as to whether you even need to even file a Thai tax return if you brought no money into Thailand that is taxable per a treaty between Thailand and your home country, or if it is pre 2024 savings"

I like the sound of that very last part!

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[Big Boy]

Posted 56 minutes ago
Went to my tax office again, explained to them I get pensions from the UK, pay tax in the UK.
Thay yet again said "due to the double taxation agreement you won't pay tax here"
If Immigration should mention it I just show them proof of my tax payments.

I thought I'd addressed that one. I was told that my P60 would negate any tax bill that I might have, but I have to make the return. The P60, however, must be validated by the UK Embassy.

[Big Boy]

Also, based on readings on other forums there is a big question as to whether you even need to even file a Thai tax return if you brought no money into Thailand that is taxable per a treaty between Thailand and your home country, or if it is pre 2024 savings"

I like the sound of that very last part!

Hence my disclaimer, and my advice to go to the office yourself. Everybody's circumstances will be different. The opening part of my interview was how does my income arrive in Thailand? If I had said I didn't, maybe I'd have got a different answer.

We all have the choice. Ask the tax office, or listen to Forums and bar stool lawyers. I am only trying to help by relaying my personal experience, and my disclaimer does say that I might have got some of it wrong. I will find out how well I understood when I attend my 14 Feb meeting.

[thecolonel]

Also, based on readings on other forums there is a big question as to whether you even need to even file a Thai tax return if you brought no money into Thailand that is taxable per a treaty between Thailand and your home country, or if it is pre 2024 savings"

I like the sound of that very last part!

Hence my disclaimer, and my advice to go to the office yourself. Everybody's circumstances will be different. The opening part of my interview was how does my income arrive in Thailand? If I had said I didn't, maybe I'd have got a different answer.

We all have the choice. Ask the tax office, or listen to Forums and bar stool lawyers. I am only trying to help by relaying my personal experience, and my disclaimer does say that I might have got some of it wrong. I will find out how well I understood when I attend my 14 Feb meeting.

Your reply above to my reply is a little defensive, relax. Your posts were helpful.

I merely made a tongue in cheek remark that I 'might' be in the clear, that's all.

Ps end of first para doesn't quite make sense??

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[Gregjam]

Thank you Big Boy for letting us know what you are experiencing. I am sure that there are many like myself who will face this hurdle in the coming years and are following the subject with interest. It is far better to get a picture, albeit a personal one and we all will have different situations, of what we are likely to face.
Things will no doubt change over time as the situation settles down but at present it is new to all of us and so much better to get an impression from someone going through it rather than bar stool lawyers.

[caller]

Thanks BB. Although I am still struggling to get why you have to pay any tax in Thailand, due to the DTA?

Anyway, for Brits, as the UK Embassy won't be able to 'validate' everyone's P60 - mine arrives via email & secure password, which I will have to print out, what happens? This is the same situation we had with the Embassy being asked to 'validate' the supporting docs we needed for our visa extension. They couldn't. Basically, they are limited to saying he has shown us these documents and based on those documents they confirm his pension income is x,y,z.

I wonder what their plan B will be, or maybe they will accept the Embassy acting as a notary, in which case, why bother?