Global Warming/Climate Change 2

[H2ODunc]

.

And these figures were plucked from where ?
A link ?.
They totally contradict all the other figures I have seen even from the very people whose jobs and grants rely on warming. it looks like something Al Gore would come up with.
As said even when the science tells global warming tree huggers they are wrong they still continue with the same old mantra.
I don't argue that man needs to tackle pollution globally. The way we treat the seas is a scandal. yet global warming isn't about pollution or saving the planet nut rather all about control and taxation that,s why politicians have grabbed it with both hands and even now will refuse to stop.
As said before. This has got nothing to do with science but has become quasi religious and like all religious nutters you will never win.
When the guy that started all the panic Al Gore makes over 10 billion from all this nonsense that tells me there is a scam and a half being pulled.

[STEVE G]

And these figures were plucked from where ?

Nasa:
http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/2011/

The fact that the temperature sometimes stays constant for a number of years is due to the fact that an increasing temperature trend has masked a period when it should have dropped due the natural cycles.
If it wasn't following an upward trend the graph would oscillate up and down around a null line.

...the global warming zealots will continue with their ranting...

rant·ed, rant·ing, rants
:to speak or write in an angry or violent manner; rave.
:to talk in a noisy, excited, or declamatory manner
:to utter in a bombastic declamatory fashion

[Super Joe]

I don't argue that man needs to tackle pollution globally. The way we treat the seas is a scandal. yet global warming isn't about pollution or saving the planet nut rather all about control and taxation that's why politicians have grabbed it with both hands and even now will refuse to stop.

Just on this point Dunc, about taxation being the main motive behind a 'government created' scare to generate income etc... the much heralded climate change legislation, (the precursor to a carbon tax), came before the U.S. Congress and got soundly kicked into touch for another how many years. Taxation seems a perfectly plausable ulterior motive to me, I don't believe it involves worshipping 30' owls, so how come all the Republican's and many Dem's allowed to vote against it!? I don't make sense if it was a giant orchastrated conspiracy.

It seems impossible for it to be a plot by a small number of certain elites like Al Gore & co, not just because of the scale of people that need corrupting around the US & Europe, but moreover because China & Russia are fully on board with CC, as are their thousands of scientists, science organisations etc. Economically it is disastrous for the growth of the Chinese economy, their rulers are not at all happy about restrictions etc to their fast developing industries. Surely if it was just a load of fabricate junk science, created by 'enemies' like the US/UK, Russia and China would have been on that years ago.

Not saying the rest of your points are or aren't valid, don't understand the science and not really convinced either way, but the above points resonate a lot with my thinking about it all.


SJ

[Homer]

OH DEAR !
The secret is out ! The Met office and the University of East Anglia Climatic Research Unit quietly released data that confirms that the warming stopped in 1997 ans hasn't risen since even though the levels of CO2 have continued to rise.

The same climate alarmists who defended the University of East Anglia Climatic Research Unit after emails from scientists there showed they fudged data, advocated biased viewpoints and out right lied are now strangely quiet. Can't handle the inconvenient truth?

If there was no barely hidden agenda behind climate alarmists they'd be celebrating now. Uhh ... that's not true. They'd be regrouping to push another barely hidden agenda under cover of fear of global cooling.

[charlesh]

Yeap lots of people making dollars out of this latest "sky is falling" scare.
Reference to the 0.6 deg C ANOMALY (graoh above) strangely coincides with the almost doubling of the earths population in the last 30 years!!!

[STEVE G]

Reference to the 0.6 deg C ANOMALY (graoh above) strangely coincides with the almost doubling of the earths population in the last 30 years!!!

Due to the fact that mankind is not changing where it obtains it's energy, there is a correlation between population growth and fossil fuel consumption.

[Homer]

Due to the fact that mankind is not changing where it obtains it's energy, there is a correlation between population growth and fossil fuel consumption.

Population also correlates with habitation density and surface areas of all of the following: human habitation, land under cultivation, paved land, reservoirs, wetlands, abandoned farmland and all types of forrest. All those contribute to the heat island effect. Climate alarmists dismiss such concerns because their models compensate for the effect. The anti-junk science types don't care about the adjustments because they've pulled back the curtain and shown the world the hidden agenda.

[MrPlum]

A central plank of the AGW proponents is the actual physics. Here, the 'greenhouse gas' effect is challenged... http://www.climatechangedispatch.com/ho ... lit-effect

'in 1951 the American Meteorological Society (AMS) had already condemned the GHE to the trashcan of failed theories.'

'“Logic trumps nonsense; that is why humans invented it around 400 B.C. No one needs to prove or disprove the existence of whatchamacallits. They are not even imaginary. There is no greenhouse in the sky.”'

'minor solar driven global warming from 1974 to 1998 has stabilized this century. CO2 has nothing to do with global warming; it actually cools Earth. Arctic ice does not melt because of global warming'

Some of the technical aspects are too complex for my grey matter. Perhaps Steve would have a crack at it?

James Hansen, with Maurice Strong and Michael Mann, is one of the small band of AGW brothers who have been pushing AGW.



The image of James Hansen being arrested is significant. Hansen is a major player in establishing the AGW narrative. He is not a climatologist and has been arrested 3 times (staged arrests). His advocacy is not in keeping with impartiality expected from a government scientist. Is it credible that someone who seems to be a GW zealot, should be placed in charge of climate data? Since Mr Hansen is making money from pushing AGW, is it not feasible he might fudge, not only the existing data, but also the historical record? The pro-warming, 'special interest'-controlled White House, has certainly benefited from having this 'trusted' scientist on their team.

[Super Joe]

Yes the White House were in favour of it, but interesting the rank and file members, from both parties, kicked any notion of tax-driven emission caps into touch, at least for the forseable. Didn't quite go according to 'script' this one

US Senate drops bill to cap carbon emissions:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2 ... hange-bill
A major climate change bill that would have capped carbon emissions has been abandoned by Democrats in the US Senate in the face of opposition from both sides of the house. Republicans said the bill would create a "national energy tax", warning costs would be passed to consumers in the form of higher electricity bills and fuel costs that would lead manufacturers to take their factories overseas, putting jobs at risk.

Senate majority leader Harry Reid said the reason for abandoning the attempt to pass a comprehensive energy and climate bill was simple: "We know we don't have the votes."


SJ

[STEVE G]

A central plank of the AGW proponents is the actual physics. Here, the 'greenhouse gas' effect is challenged... http://www.climatechangedispatch.com/ho ... lit-effect

Before I find time for the physics, I notice that the engineer who wrote that theory, Pierre R. Latour, is the president of Clifftent inc. a Houston based engineering company that developes process control solutions for oil refineries and petrochemical plants:
http://www.nioclibrary.ir/latin%20articles/084000.pdf

[MrPlum]

Before I find time for the physics, I notice that the engineer who wrote that theory, Pierre R. Latour, is the president of Clifftent inc. a Houston based engineering company that developes process control solutions for oil refineries and petrochemical plants:

The physics will do. Unless you've found the Holy Grail... an unbiased source.

It seems impossible for it to be a plot by a small number of certain elites like Al Gore & co, not just because of the scale of people that need corrupting around the US & Europe, but moreover because China & Russia are fully on board with CC, as are their thousands of scientists, science organisations etc. Economically it is disastrous for the growth of the Chinese economy, their rulers are not at all happy about restrictions etc to their fast developing industries. Surely if it was just a load of fabricate junk science, created by 'enemies' like the US/UK, Russia and China would have been on that years ago.

It seems impossible that a small number of certain elites, could engineer a global 'swine flu' pandemic, likewise Bird Flu and SARS. Yet they did. A global mortgage fraud yet they did. It seems impossible that, after 60 years of failing to find a cure for cancer, doctors are not allowed to suggest alternatives. Yet they are not. It seems impossible that a small number of certain elites, could engineer an invasion of another country with lies about WMDs but they did. They are still doing it. It seems impossible a small number of certain elites, could be so indifferent as to shower the earth with depleted uranium, yet find concern for saving fluffy Polar Bears. Could engineer a global communist conspiracy. Murder JFK, then his brother, then his son and family.

Thankfully, there are those who haven't rendered themselves blind to all possibility of conspiracy through a bizarre obsession with Alex Jones.

Produce evidence China is curtailing its economy due to AGW. The last blurb I read on coal-fired power stations, they were proceeding full steam ahead. China is seriously polluted and there are clear benefits to moving to non-polluting industries. With its huge army of virtual slave labour, China will be the manufacturing base for it.

[hhfarang]

Before I find time for the physics...

[STEVE G]

A central plank of the AGW proponents is the actual physics. Here, the 'greenhouse gas' effect is challenged... http://www.climatechangedispatch.com/ho ... lit-effect

This website goes to some length to point out the errors in the above theory.

The Second Law, Radiative Transfer, and Global Warming
http://how-it-looks.blogspot.com/2011/0 ... r-and.html

Actually if Dr Latour's theory was true, it would have an easily observable effect on the world as the same mechanism of radiative heat transfer that happens in the greenhouse effect is the same as that which makes a cloudy night warmer than a clear one which would then also violate the 'second law of thermodynamics' in exactly the same manner as he states is impossible.
I'm sure as a scientist he is fully aware of this and I imagine he has only written this as a deliberate obscuration to protect his personal interests in the oil industry.

[Super Joe]

It seems impossible for it to be a plot by a small number of certain elites like Al Gore & co, not just because of the scale of people that need corrupting, but because China & Russia are fully on board, as are their thousands of scientists. Economically it is disastrous for the growth of the Chinese economy, their rulers are not at all happy about restrictions etc to their fast developing industries. Surely if it was just a load of fabricate junk science, created by 'enemies' like the US/UK, Russia and China would have been on that years ago.

It seems impossible that a small number of certain elites, could engineer a global 'swine flu' pandemic, likewise Bird Flu and SARS. A global mortgage fraud yet they did. It seems impossible that, after 60 years of failing to find a cure for cancer, doctors are not allowed to suggest alternatives. It seems impossible that a small number of certain elites, could engineer an invasion of another country with lies about WMDs but they did.

So medicine still has another few years yet before it equals Ayurvedic's 3,000 years without a cure then
Throwing a number of other unrelated CT's into the ring might help distract from the points I raised, but it certainly does not answer them. Those other unfounded conspiracy theories are very different circumstances... countries like China & Russia were not in agreement and supporting them as they are with AGW...
Two main points I raised were:
1) The Al Gore 'team' are B-rate 'leaders' at best - they couldn't control their own science community as they'd have wanted, ditto the media, they couldn't even get their Carbon Emission/Energy Tax legislation (the prime motive), before the house for a vote. Kicked into touch by Repubs and Dems, the elite's own lackeys!! This is a matter of fact, it happened (or didn't as the case may be ). It's not unfounded speculation and theorizing about imaginery German-Jewish bankers, Goldman/Obama/Gore Chicago Climate Exchange's or the 'elite's' failed energy tax bill.

2) 'Unfriendly' Countries like China and Russia being on board, despite the fact reduction measures could seriously affect their current industrial and economic growth. Hence the point, how can Gore/Obama & co. 'engineer' these major powers, plus their thousand's of scientists, into agree about manmade AGW?? You don't see NWO-elite advocates addressing this point directly, instead you get strange comparisons with other conspiracy theories which bear little resemblance to the circumstances surrounding this issue...

So two questions remain...
1) Why did the Energy Tax legislation get kicked into touch if the elite criminals running the show supposedly engineered all this??
2) Why is the likes of China, and it's army of scientists who are ranked top in the world as a community, in agreement with the science if it's supposedly junk??

Produce evidence China is curtailing its economy due to AGW.

You know the point wasn't have China curtailed anything yet, that's a red herring. The issue is the cost implementation would inccur. China has stated that to implement the kind of reduction levels required, it would cost $438 billion per year, or 7.5% of GDP. It agrees the reduction is neccessary as it believe's strongly in manmade warming... "China's Climate Change Program 2007 - Climate change was mainly caused by the massive emissions of CO2 and other greenhouse gases. China's National Assessment Report provides scientific basis for developing national policies to address climate change."
China and their army of scientists, ranked among the best in the world, certainly agree with the science on manmade warming. They were hardly pressured into it by Al Gore & co, they couldn't even get their own Democratic politicians to support the legislation.

Climate Change has come and passed all the conspiracy theories by. Whether this is a genuine occurance, part of natural weather patterns or just corrupt politicians/governments looking to feather their nests/introduce new taxes, one thing it has not been shown to be is an orchastrated plot by a powerful group of elite's that weild any kind of power or control over politicians, media, scientific communities etc. Some people have short memories when it comes to facing the fact that their previous claims and theories were proved unfounded...

Theory Part A - "the environmental theorists who are conspiring to bury us in taxes and tariffs and turn us all into carbon criminals"
The tax/tarrif/carbon criminal legislation came and went WITHOUT even getting into the House for a vote. Kicked into touch by the politicians the elite supposedly own.

Theory Part B - Not quite, Steve. He's on your team. Do a search for 'Rockefeller global warming'
The only member of the Rockefeller family serving in Government (in a position of influence as Chairman of Senate Committee on Commerce & Science), personally introduced a bill to... Quote: "suspend any EPA action under the Clean Air Act with respect to carbon dioxide or methane"

Theory Part C - Can anyone guess how many billions Al Gore will make through his stake in 'Generation Investment Management' his very own carbon trading firm? Goldman Sachs is its biggest shareholder. The vested interests who were set to profit immensely, a stark and obvious factoid ignored by the SJ's of this world (confirming their own double standard)
How about the standard of this double factoid... Quote: "the biggest losers are Chicago Climate Exchange CCX’s two biggest investors, Al Gore's Generation Investment Management and Goldman Sachs".

Theory Part D - How about how many zillions Obama will make from the Chicago Climate Exchange? Talk about a snake under every rock. Come on SJ. You're normally good at digging up this kind of dirt.
Ok, seeing as you asked ...Quote: "The now defunct Chicago Climate Exchange was the GHG reduction and trading system. Trading reached zero monthly volume in February 2010 and remained at zero for the next 9 months when the decision to close the exchange was announced."

Theory Part E - SHOREBANK almost went bankrupt during the recession, but a private rescue bailout was arranged. The bank's employees had donated money to Obama's Senate campaign. The bank has now been designated to be the "banking arm" of the CHICAGO CLIMATE EXCHANGE
SHOREBANK, c/w Jewish backers, went under. Along with most of the other major Jewish bankers... Lehmans, Bear Stearns, Kuhn Loeb & Co, Salomon Brothers, Bache & Co, Merrill Lynch, August Belmont & Co and J&W Seligman & Co


SJ

[MrPlum]

I imagine he has only written this as a deliberate obscuration to protect his personal interests in the oil industry.

This is one of the reasons I prefer to look at the political, social and financial aspects. It's easier than trying to figure out the science.

Your source isn't a climatologist but the physics was educational.

Throwing a number of other unrelated CT's into the ring might help distract from the points I raised, but it certainly does not answer them.

Says the master of tossing Alex Jones and Mike Adams 'into the ring'. I was responding to YOUR comment that you find it impossible to imagine a conspiracy. If you are still seeing Iraq WMD lies and global mortgage fraud as theories, that's quite a failure of imagination.

As usual, you muddy the distinction between what I believe and the most extreme 'CT' views. I told you 2 years ago I don't see one group of 'elites'. So your points on that are bogus. There are some factions which are mainstream. 'Neocons'. Central Bankers. Communists. The 'Israel Lobby'. 'Vulture' or 'Disaster' capitalists. Nazis (Bush family?). Perhaps a religious faction or two. Is Sauron's Eye overlooking them all? Bankers are said to sit atop the pyramid. I don't know but they sure aren't at the bottom.

Whether 'globalization' or a 'NWO', there is an effort to construct global financial, medical, environmental and military system of 'governance', with a loss of sovereignty for national governments. This is a work-in-progress, so spinning any setback as a sign that no conspiracy exists is premature.

As far as AGW is concerned there seems to be a collaboration between communists/socialists, who've hijacked the environmental movement and political chancers like Obama and Gore who are rewarded with a big slice of the cake if they help it succeed. Since Gold In My Sacks (popping up again) backed the Chicago exchange, you know bankers were involved. For the political insiders, it's just another 'Enron' and 'Savings and Loan' get-filthy-rich Ponzi scheme.

Those other unfounded conspiracy theories are very different circumstances

Lying is a unifying constant.

Are they as 'unfounded' as AGW? Climate Science is using reasonable (although speculative) conjectures and drawing conclusions. You could apply the same computer modelling being applied to AGW, to any of the 'theories'. For example. Feed in the raw data.. the murder of JFK, his brother and offspring; and the assassinations and attempts (such as Reagan) on previous Presidents. Enter them into your computer model, with all the possible reasons they were topped and you will produce a nifty graph showing a definite correlation between number of assassinations 'x' and attempts to escape the bankers usurious system 'y'. For arguments sake take 'Z' as proof and 'c', a reasonable conclusion and introduce 'l', an official pronouncement (unofficially known as a load of cobblers). 'c' and 'l' are constants. 'Z' is determined by observing the output, since inputs are usually hidden. 'v' is a bullet-proof vest. And 'w' a wild goose chase.

The formula is quite simple. With x directly proportional to y-v, c= (l+w)-Z. Otherwise known as 'Plum's Postulates'. There is a very clear rising trend, since the 'Obscene Period', (where assassinations occurred) with increased amounts of legislation passed in bankers favour. This is due to APF (Anthropogenic Presidential Forcing). There is an overwhelming consensus amongst CT 'scientists' about this. In fact I'd go as far as to say the science is settled.

So two questions remain...
1) Why did the Energy Tax legislation get kicked into touch if the elite criminals running the show supposedly engineered all this??

If memory serves, the GAO (government bean counters) could not quantify how much to charge companies for emissions. There was no valid formula for calculating the impact of individual emissions on climate. With no way to monetize CO2 emissions, the Chicago Exchange hotbed of crooks and thieves... Goldman Sachs, Gore and Obama.. bit the dust. The market lost confidence and the public mood began to change. No 'Plunge Protection Team' could save it. It's not such a loss to insiders who have already made fortunes being in the trade early. Anyone playing the markets understands 'PUMP AND DUMP' and 'Story Stocks'. The story was 'global warming'. Cash in on the initial Gore and media-generated mania, then unload as the bagholders pile in. Short the stock to death on the way down. Make a fortune both ways. It's not a disaster when you're an insider.

2) Why is the likes of China, and it's army of scientists who are ranked top in the world as a community, in agreement with the science if it's supposedly junk??

I thought all the climate data was coming from only 4 sources in North America and the UK? How far back does Chinese climate data go? Russian? If they are top ranked, besides the nice press releases, what scientific input have they provided?

Produce evidence China is curtailing its economy due to AGW.

You know the point wasn't have China curtailed anything yet, that's a red herring.

I can spot a red herring when I see one. If the 'top-ranked' scientists believed all the Armageddon scenarios had any credibility, they would already have taken massive steps. The National Geographic feature that made a mockery of your Chinese 5-year plans, made it clear that nothing could be achieved for 30 years. Possibly a 2% reduction in emissions. Which tells you all you need to know about the level of belief in China. What does make sense is China's move to clean fuel technologies to reduce its serious pollution problems.

China and their army of scientists, ranked among the best in the world, certainly agree with the science on man-made warming.

Are you wearing a red Ra-Ra skirt?

They were hardly pressured into it by Al Gore & co, they couldn't even get their own Democratic politicians to support the legislation.

You've been given the reasons.

one thing it has not been shown to be is an orchastrated plot by a powerful group of elite's that weild any kind of power or control over politicians, media, scientific communities etc.

I think they had a good run for their money. Unless you are suggesting the whole idea just evolved spontaneously in an environmental petri dish?

The tax/tarrif/carbon criminal legislation came and went WITHOUT even getting into the House for a vote. Kicked into touch by the politicians the elite supposedly own.

Tell that to Europe and Australia.

The only member of the Rockefeller family serving in Government (in a position of influence as Chairman of Senate Committee on Commerce & Science), personally introduced a bill to... Quote: "suspend any EPA action under the Clean Air Act with respect to carbon dioxide or methane"

'Suspend' isn't cancel.

How about the standard of this double factoid... Quote: "the biggest losers are Chicago Climate Exchange CCX’s two biggest investors, Al Gore's Generation Investment Management and Goldman Sachs".

Not the full story. How much money did Gore and/or GS make before it went broke? They aren't stupid. As insiders they will have abandoned their positions or shorted the exchange before it went tits up. Does Gore look broke?

Ok, seeing as you asked ...Quote: "The now defunct Chicago Climate Exchange was the GHG reduction and trading system. Trading reached zero monthly volume in February 2010 and remained at zero for the next 9 months when the decision to close the exchange was announced."

Does Obama look broke?

SHOREBANK, c/w Jewish backers, went under. Along with most of the other major Jewish bankers... Lehmans, Bear Stearns, Kuhn Loeb & Co, Salomon Brothers, Bache & Co, Merrill Lynch, August Belmont & Co and J&W Seligman & Co

'Went under' sounds so dramatic. Those poor bankers really suffered...

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm? ... id=1513522