Understanding Thailand

General chat about life in the Land Of Smiles. Discuss expat life, relationship issues and all things generally Thailand and Asia related.
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PeteC
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Understanding Thailand

Post by PeteC »

This has some value in understanding things here. Pete :cheers:

http://www.thai-blogs.com/index.php/200 ... nt?blog=35

One of the pleasures of visiting Thailand is the sense of the old you get, the various protocols and traditions from an age gone by that Thailand still enigmatically clings onto in the shadow of the postmodern skyline. Seen by tourists the girls that stand at the doors to restaurants and shops simply paid to bow to customers as they enter are something old worldly, to a local they are nothing strange, simply basic politeness. Many visitors are left wondering how within a country where anyone can don a suit and stroll through Siam Paragon, how every Thai seems to innately know their place within an almost Victorian class system of deference and aloofness.

When a tourist puts his first tentative step on terra firma and for every moment henceforth unwittingly he is immersing himself in a translucent ether of Sakdina that he will probably never become aware. Sakdina harks back to the dawn of Thailand and in the 21st century has called on all its adaptability to survive. 21st century Sakdina can be seen as many things; the amount of privilege a person deserves, seeing an expensive car drive by with a police escort leading it rudely gesturing for ordinary drivers to get out the way, the deference shown by a servant to his master or students lowering their heads when they pass a teacher by in the corridor. Sakdina is the division of the society into commoners and higher castes and the realisation that a Tuk Tuk driver, even if he saved his pennies and passed that Degree at Ramkanghang Open University, he would never be accepted in a job vacancy of government officer simply because of his low birth. Sakdina’s origins lie deep in Thai history.

Origins of Sakdina

Medieval Thailand was a sparsely populated land, remote regions separated by dense rain forests, many isolated villages were only accessible by river. For the fledgling Ayutthaya Kingdom sprawling across the centre of this domain, maintaining control over remote possessions was a constant challenge, regional lords often enjoyed far too much autonomy in the eyes of a greedy capital.

It was in the reign of King Borommatrailokkanat (1448-1488) that a formalised system was introduced designed to force even the most far-flung regions into line. King Trailok passed a series of laws that have resonated down Thai history to today and are probably the most influential royal commands issued in Thai history. Trailok introduced a governmental system which nowadays is known as the Sakdina System, but at the time were laws of Civil, Military and Provincial Hierarchies. The system itself was based upon a cultural and social order that had been practiced in much of the country at local level for centuries, Trailok made three important changes to this system, he expanded it, standardised it and centralised it.

Thai society had long been divided into two classes, the nobles and the masses, the Sakdina System clearly defined the roles within society of these two groups, how they would interact with each other and amongst themselves creating a strict social order based on the quantified worth of each individual. Rigid castes were formalised within the ranks of both nobles and commoners excluding only Chinese merchants, workers and women of non-noble birth who were considered without worth.


When first introduced the Sakdina System was mainly a system of social interaction, the worth of an individual determined how he should responsibly behave and the respect he was due from others. In the Thai language where the usage of pronouns and bowing are so important, a system of ranks made a simple indicator when people met as to if they were higher or lower status and how low or high to bow and how to address the other person. The system not only established how much respect a person deserved but also how much social responsibly they were supposed to take. People of higher birth were expected to live by higher standards. The system also established the relationship between noble and commoner, even free commoner, was that of master and slave, all free males 18-80 were required to submit themselves for 6-8 months to their landlord each years, service could be either civil or military.

However, the problem with a system of privilege, even one started solely to promote cordiality, is abuse. Status could be used for personal gain and corruption and this quickly began to happen with Sakdina. Abuses such as, if a person of lower worth committed a crime upon a person of higher Sakdina they would receive a sterner sentence than whereas if the situation was reversed a person of high worth would receive a lower sentence for hurting a person of low worth. Higher-ranking nobles also used their Sakdina to gain audiences with the king.

Everyone person in the country of caste was assigned a numerical rank according to their worth. With the lower ranks of commoners, it tended to be job defined ranks, however in most cases it was rank that determined what job you were eligible to do. Extensive lists were created in Trailok’s time which meticulously number ranked every job in the country. The main benefit of the system for the Kings of Ayutthaya the number of any individual was modifiable by the monarch, this gave the monarch ability to reward loyalty and punish disloyally giving him a more powerful hold over his subjects.

Sakdina literally translates to Field (Na) Power (Sakdi) and is often referred to as Thai Feudalism. One part of Sakdina often over emphasized is the land rights associated with it. The ranking number each person of caste in the country received was often referred to as ‘Rai,’ which is a land measurement. It has been suggested that a person received Rai of land equal to his Sakdina rank. So a Government Officer with a Sakdina of 225 would not only have a social standing of 225 but also be granted 225 Rai of land by the king. Sakdina numerical ranks were, Crown Prince 100,000 Rai, members of the Royal Family up to 50,000 Rai, ranks of Nobles 400-10,000 Rai depending upon position in government, Government Officials 50-400 Rai depending upon position in the administration, Craftsmen 50 Rai, Commoners 25 Rai, Slaves 5 Rai.

While the distribution of land along these lines is by far the most famous aspect of Sakdina, it may not have happened at all but rather using the word Rai to describe Sakdina may simply have been symbolic. This argument is supported by the fact areas of land were given Sakdina values and these don’t seem to correspond the real size of the land. A district may have only 10,000 Rai of actual land but be given a Sakdina value of 30,000 Rai to distribute amongst the inhabitants, suggesting the Sakdina Rai rankings were purely symbolic. That there was no land distribution is almost certain from the 16th century onwards when Chinese merchants, monks and married women of non-noble birth were given Sakdina numbers, leaving only unmarried peasant girls and Chinese labourers as without Sakdina.

A sizable proportion of the population however had the ignominious status of having no Na. At first women who were not of noble birth were considered of no worth along with the sizable Chinese immigrant population. When the laws changed allowing married common women Sakdina she received it based of two factors, her husband’s Rai and her status as wife, 1st wives would receive more Rai than the 2nd and 3rd wives and so on. The wife would also gain or lose Rai depending upon the fortunes of her husband, even noble women with Rai of their own when married received Rai from their husband. Marriage to a husband of higher Rai meant she increased her Rai, a noble woman could also lower her Rai by marrying a man of lower Rai. Sakdina was not an entirely inflexible system for men either; men of lower caste could also raise their Rai through marriage to a noble woman. Also a father blessed with a beautiful daughter could to try to marry her to someone of high Rai and receive an increase in his rank in return.


Sakdina in Modern Times

Unlike in the west, Thai Feudalism didn’t die but grew stronger as it aged. In the reign of King Chulalok (1782-1809) the system was codified as a legal system called The 3-Seal Code and officially used in legal disputes to determine how much weight a person’s testimony carried, the higher the Rai, the more believable the witness’s testimony was considered in court, so a person commoner accusing a noble would have little chance.

As Thailand fell under western influence and capitalised in the 20th century this new system brought many changes to challenge the established Sakdina harmony. Business traditionally low caste became of greater importance, an educated middle class emerged, and people were able to raise their worth in society and lose it. Sakdina was a system of social stability but capitalism could be a system of fluidity. However Capitalism didn’t prove incompatible with Sakdina which was able to make concessions and accept new castes onto its hierarchy and able accept the changing of fortunes. Sakdina was also able to change capitalism, Traditionally Sakdina determined a person’s role in society by its caste system by limiting ability of lower castes to higher office, by doing this Sakdina ensured most capitalist success came to mostly to the high castes already at the top.

Sakdina was legally abolished as late as the 1932 coup, but refused to go away. Even the Fascist Dictator Phiboon Songkran Thailand’s most powerful ruler had a shot at ending it, but failed, discovering almost 800 years of history, deference and effeteness doesn’t pass easily and especially not in Thailand. There’s a saying “understand Sakdina and you understand Thailand”.

In politics Sakdina sets the relationship between Thai government and the people, not in the western idea of a civil service, serving the public, but a higher caste considering the public slaves to be governed by them. Sakdina continues in the attitude the people at the top of society should not be criticised by those lower than them and creates a culture of passive acceptance of authority everywhere, no matter how unjust or corrupt.

Often for the tourist the most visible example of Sakdina is the sex industry. It often baffles foreigners how Thais can so easily see send generation after generation of their young girls into the industry but have little moral of even nationalistic qualms over it. This is ironically contrasted by the continual scandals of University girls entering prostitution, some to fund courses, but many such as the Chulalongkorn case, simply to fund clothes shopping in Siam Squares fashion boutiques. Sakdina again provides the explanation as peasant girls are of no worth in the system but middle class university students are not behaving as their Sakdina ranks demands.

Sakdina is probably still the most powerful influence on the Thai psyche today and its legacy never more prevalent than in the Thai political crisis of the present. Nothing more than PAD’s argument for the overthrow of two democratically elected governments illustrates present day Sakdina, PAD arguing that the people who voted for the overthrown regimes were uneducated peasants not capable of judging who to vote for. The PAD argument is simply the people who voted for the Democrats may have been fewer in number but by being educated middle class were of higher caste and Sakdina so their opinion should count more.
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Understanding Thailand

Post by margaretcarnes »

Very good Pete - that helps to put into context what I think we recognise and accept, but didn't understand there was a formal background to the present heirarchy in Thai society.
I'd certainly never realised that the system was so formalised.
Despite the change in 1932 it's bound to be ingrained in modern Thai society for many years to come. Although those with lower Rai probably have more opportunity than ever before to raise their status, I guess it's a bit like someone in the UK winning the lottery! They have the wealth, but still not the status to be accepted into higher ranks.
Most interesting at the moment though is how it explains the PADs views. :cheers:
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Post by johnnyk »

Helps to understand the current tug-of-war. Mr. T is nouveau-riche, jumped-up etc. The other side are "old money".
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Post by PeteC »

It also goes a long way in explaining what "Democracy Thai Style" means. As we've discussed before, this place is not a democracy, never has been and never will be, in western terms or thinking.

It also shows why us farangs are so hard to figure out. I think they've just stopped trying. :shock: We marry a woman of any status and lavish her with things unimagined by many Thai's, and take her to functions where she shouldn't be.

I've never thought about that, but perhaps it makes our wives very uncomfortable if they are knowledgeable of the Sakdina system. We think it's a great thing and a treat for them, when in reality they may be seething and only want to get out of the environment?

All of this is going to make for some great discussions around the neighborhood here. Pete :cheers:
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Post by Wanderlust »

It also makes sense of the situation where a farang marries 'well' and then does not behave in a manner conforming to status, so one severely cheesed off wife and family, but in a way, all societies operate along those lines, even the USA, bit it is just dressed up in a different way. Those with fame, money, power are expected to live to different standards to everyone else, but when they fail or commit crimes they generally get lesser sentences than the ordinary people, although harsher press. As far as political shenanigans go it does help explain things but again there are many parallels with the western world - there you have the 'silent majority', here you have 'mai pen rai'. People tend to vote the same way most of the time in every country, and it is only a small 'swing' group that actually determines most elections by and large, with obvious honourable exceptions. The big difference I would say is that people in the west would not accept being told who to vote for by anyone else, which seems to be the norm here, certainly in the rural areas where the village headman holds sway. That seems to be the most obvious example of the 'feudal' system still in place.
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Post by faq2mfh »

Where does that leave our kids (farang married to Thai)? I lived in Thailand for a long time and I still don’t understand that part. When my kid was a baby people would flock around us for a chance to hold him. It’s like a love hate thing they have for the half/half…
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Post by Spitfire »

Yes, a very good text, well explained. It also accounts quite well for PAD actions at the end in a simple understanding way. Explains their plans for the 75% to be "appointed" and only 25% elected nicely.

A lot of truth in that extract. It(Sakdina) is alive and well without doubt. :cheers:

faq2mfh,

The fascination with Thai/farang kids you are getting at could be something to do with the fact that half Thai/half westerner people are prolific on TV and in entertainment. They are everywhere on news/music/gossip etc shows whichever channel you switch on to. These types on TV are viewed as the "beatiful people", and these programs are viewed by the rural communities as well as the city types, even most of the poorest farmers have a TV, again we have almost come full circle back to the Sakdina.

Remember for the locals it's "Wow, it's the TV!" The power of television on the locals is breathtakingly potent here. :wink:

Not propergating anything definitive, just an idea. :thumb:
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underdtanding thailand

Post by seasidesurfer »

What a brilliant post. It has given me a far greater understanding of Thailand than all the books I have read.
One of my Wifes favorite expressions " Thai know Thai " used whenever we meet another Thai now takes on a whole new meaning.
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Re: underdtanding thailand

Post by PeteC »

seasidesurfer wrote:What a brilliant post. It has given me a far greater understanding of Thailand than all the books I have read.
One of my Wifes favorite expressions " Thai know Thai " used whenever we meet another Thai now takes on a whole new meaning.
Yes, I agree completely. For decades I've had all these things swirling around in my brain, raising question after question and nothing I've read nor people I've spoken to were able to box it, wrap it up and put a bow on it like this author has.

As he say's, I think understanding Sakdina is the golden fleece of knowledge for us farangs. Pete :cheers:
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Post by Jim »

Where do farangs fit into this? Does this mean that foreigners, as non-owners of land, are seen the lowest of the low?
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Post by charlesh »

And a happy Sakdina to you. A very interesting read!!
Looks like an anachranistic hangover however from earlier contacts with India and a very useful tool too in keeping the "plebs' in their proper place. All we need (I know another simplistic approach) is a later day Thai Mahatma to lead the way.
As for understanding the Thais, a small step, as much of the ritualisation, subservience and obesiance appears to be a veneer and the "code" may be an oversimplification of more subtle and/or complicated cultural paradigms.
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Post by STEVE G »

prcscct wrote:It also goes a long way in explaining what "Democracy Thai Style" means. As we've discussed before, this place is not a democracy, never has been and never will be, in western terms or thinking.

It also shows why us farangs are so hard to figure out. I think they've just stopped trying. :shock: We marry a woman of any status and lavish her with things unimagined by many Thai's, and take her to functions where she shouldn't be.

I've never thought about that, but perhaps it makes our wives very uncomfortable if they are knowledgeable of the Sakdina system. We think it's a great thing and a treat for them, when in reality they may be seething and only want to get out of the environment?
Yes, a very good article Pete and the point you make about the sort of places and events that you take your Thai partner to is something that I’ve picked up on over the years as well.

My partner and her immediate friends are all Issan girls, and proud of it as well, and they just don’t enjoy going to those up-market hotels, restaurants and society events where people are going to look down on them.

I think what they are really trying to avoid are those frosty Thai matrons with the dangerous hair that really give them the cold shoulder; the wives of local officials and businessman and that type of snobbery.

The younger generation are nowhere near as bad and my partner seems to be quite happy in those sort of open Thai restaurants where you can spot the odd soap star amongst the Bangkok crowd at the weekends.

Anyway, in these times of economic strife, having a partner who is happier eating in noodle stalls than five-star hotels is no bad thing!
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Post by Roel »

Jim wrote:
Where do farangs fit into this? Does this mean that foreigners, as non-owners of land, are seen the lowest of the low?
We had that discussion on this forum a while ago.
http://www.huahinafterdark.com/forum/wh ... t9555.html

I tried to explain a little that we do not fit in at all. But the discussion went more in the direction whether Thais respect the farang or not and then most people agreed that you must earn respect, you are not entitled to it, ergo differs case by case. Individually determined. If I recall correctly, must admit I did not re-read the whole thing.

I am glad that someone pointed out thousand times better than I could that WE do not fit in and Thais do not have to earn respect, basically it comes with birth (or not).

We are not the lowest of the lowest BUT we are no part of Thai hierarchical society and we are no direct threat to anyone of them. This explains the situation that we all recognize that a taxi driver is impolite without reason. And no it is not because of my attitude nor the way I dress. It happens to everyone of us and luckily it is a rare exception but this taxi driver is taking the opportunity to not show respect for a change. He cannot get away with doing that with his peers (risk: violent confrontation) and certainly not with "higher" Thais (risk: telephone call to the mayor and his license is revoked) but he can do it with a farang when he feels like it. As I said this is a rare exception because most realize that they need the (repeat) business and the Thais are raised (almost drilled) to be polite per definition.

The were-do-we-fit-in thread makes a good read with this Sakdina post in mind.
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Post by Big Boy »

A good read - thank you Pete.

All through reading it, I was reflecting upon the ritual my wife goes through when she meets another Thai for the first time. There always seems to be quite an intense conversation where she determines her position with the other Thai. There have been several occasions where the other Thai has deliberately lied to gain a higher position. All hell breaks loose when the lies are found out. The person telling lies ends up in the doghouse. True respect is never restored.
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Post by johnnyk »

There are lots of codes we don't know about and never will, I suspect.

I have learned its not a treat for a TG to go to a fancy-schmancy resto. They know their rung on the ladder and prefer eating in the street (so do I, people enjoy and smack their lips) where they are comfortable.

But is it that different in the older western societies? Go to the job interview and if you've got the right tie the job is yours, less so now but certainly true not so long ago. Chinless wonders captaining all sorts of big fancy desks.

Accent serves nicely to peg people as well and not just in the UK. Think of Castilian Spanish, Tuscan Italian and Tours French.

My Canadian mate working in advertising in the UK for over 20 years told me it drove people nuts because he had no accent they could pigeonhole. He was a farmer's son with 10th grade education and he laughed, "They should only know. Fcuk 'em."

BTW, do yo ever notice the newspaper/magazine photos of the big hi-so Thai-falang palavers? Everyone looks constipated and in dire need of an orgasm.
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